Full Version: MFA clocks
Been thinking about extra gauges in both cars reecently and I was wondering how difficult it is to have MFA clocks? I've noticed that late mk1 Golf GTIs have MFAs, as do mk1 cabrios so I Guess I can fit those to the derby, Its just a case of getting it all working. I know there is an indicator stalk to accompany the MFA but is there a separate computer module as well? I think the biggest problem is the senders. (and actually finding a set) Not that bothered about having some in the GT but having said that there is a guide on german ebay for converting mk3 clocks to having an MFA. (it aint free though and I'm not paying for it) I guess theres some stuff that wont be polo compatible; like the economy gauge fitted to some models, but If I can have oil temp and pressure as part of the gauge Id settle for that.
I think most of the electronics lives in the clocks. The economy computer is in the rev counter or speedo (I forget which) and there won't a 1.05/1.1/1.3 version so it'll be wrong.
The rest of the senders shouldn't be too difficult to get working. MK2 Injection Sciroccos have MFA too and their clocks are the same size as MK1 Golf I believe. There is a separate loom for all the MFA toys that connects to another connector on the back of the clocks.
The rest of the senders shouldn't be too difficult to get working. MK2 Injection Sciroccos have MFA too and their clocks are the same size as MK1 Golf I believe. There is a separate loom for all the MFA toys that connects to another connector on the back of the clocks.
cool, doesnt sound too bad then. Like I said juat want it for oil information really. But if I can get it all to work then bonus! 8)
(nb - this is from experience in early mk2 golf units, but I can't see the mk1 golf units being much different... the internals are fairly similar under ETKA)
MFA lives as a complete seperate module within the intrument panel, replacing the clock circuit board & display. Speedo is more or less completely independant, the hall sensor pickup for the speed signal lives outside the speedo, and attaches directly to the panel chassis. You can swap the speedo without anything getting upset, as long as the replacement has a magnet on the shaft for the hall sensor. The tacho is again mostly independant, in that doesn't attach directly to the MFA circuitry, although some of the tacho signal finds its way to the MFA via the printed circuit foil (from what I've found, the tacho holds the MPG calibration for the engine code; swap the MFA unit and it stays the same, swap the tacho and it goes wrong). The other module used is a vacuum sensor for load in the MPG calculations; this attaches onto the panel chassis and the signal feeds through the circuit film. A vacuum pipe connects up to the inlet manifold. The remaining sensors are outside the instrument panel; they are oil temp & outside temp which are simple and shouldn't present too many problems; can source from any Mk2/3 Golf GTI or buy from VW.
The Polo chassis is unlikely to have the mounts for the vacuum sensor and the MFA circuitry, also the circuit film will be wrong, so the best option would be to swap the entire mk1 golf unit in - you might want to use the polo speedo though to keep it accurate. The Formel E SSA system needs a hall sensor, and ETKA doesn't appear to list a seperate speedo unit for it, so the hopefully the magnet on the speedo shaft should be there on all units.
Another option is to mount the MFA circuitry somewhere else in the car, replace the clock LCD with a MFA LCD, and connect the two with a long multi wire cable, effectively having a remote display unit... I suspect this is how the mk3 is done.
Do note however that elapsed distance and average speed will be out, as the ratio of the speedo cable to the roadwheel speed are different between the polo and the golf. This affects the MPG aswell, which will be even more innaccurate as it won't be calibrated to the vacuum of the smaller 1.3. The only functions that'll remain usefull would be elapsed time, oil temp and outside temp.
MFA lives as a complete seperate module within the intrument panel, replacing the clock circuit board & display. Speedo is more or less completely independant, the hall sensor pickup for the speed signal lives outside the speedo, and attaches directly to the panel chassis. You can swap the speedo without anything getting upset, as long as the replacement has a magnet on the shaft for the hall sensor. The tacho is again mostly independant, in that doesn't attach directly to the MFA circuitry, although some of the tacho signal finds its way to the MFA via the printed circuit foil (from what I've found, the tacho holds the MPG calibration for the engine code; swap the MFA unit and it stays the same, swap the tacho and it goes wrong). The other module used is a vacuum sensor for load in the MPG calculations; this attaches onto the panel chassis and the signal feeds through the circuit film. A vacuum pipe connects up to the inlet manifold. The remaining sensors are outside the instrument panel; they are oil temp & outside temp which are simple and shouldn't present too many problems; can source from any Mk2/3 Golf GTI or buy from VW.
The Polo chassis is unlikely to have the mounts for the vacuum sensor and the MFA circuitry, also the circuit film will be wrong, so the best option would be to swap the entire mk1 golf unit in - you might want to use the polo speedo though to keep it accurate. The Formel E SSA system needs a hall sensor, and ETKA doesn't appear to list a seperate speedo unit for it, so the hopefully the magnet on the speedo shaft should be there on all units.
Another option is to mount the MFA circuitry somewhere else in the car, replace the clock LCD with a MFA LCD, and connect the two with a long multi wire cable, effectively having a remote display unit... I suspect this is how the mk3 is done.
Do note however that elapsed distance and average speed will be out, as the ratio of the speedo cable to the roadwheel speed are different between the polo and the golf. This affects the MPG aswell, which will be even more innaccurate as it won't be calibrated to the vacuum of the smaller 1.3. The only functions that'll remain usefull would be elapsed time, oil temp and outside temp.
I had the Passat clocks in the mk.1 with a working MFA set up. It's real easy to do for someone like yourself Gaz. Only extra senders you need are oil temp(same part as water temp on pre '85 Polo's) and ambient air temp. The speed sensor is on the back of the speedo. The MPG figures will be out, but not as much as you'd think and the speedo is fine so average speed should be fine also.
Late Golf Cabrio clocks and the corresponding stalk are the way to go as mk.2 Golf clocks aren't a direct fit, requiring some bodgery :
Late Golf Cabrio clocks and the corresponding stalk are the way to go as mk.2 Golf clocks aren't a direct fit, requiring some bodgery :
Yeah I had a feeling it wouldnt be easy. 
So the MFA doesnt have an oil pressure readout then? Just temperature? Ideally I would like to keep the polo speedo, the 120mph one looks bloody awful (very cluttered with numbers) I think I'm still gonna give it a go if I can find a set of clocks. Do all MFAs have MPG? because some have a separate gauge like formel E models whereas later models dont have this (is it integrated into the mfa on these?)
So the MFA doesnt have an oil pressure readout then? Just temperature? Ideally I would like to keep the polo speedo, the 120mph one looks bloody awful (very cluttered with numbers) I think I'm still gonna give it a go if I can find a set of clocks. Do all MFAs have MPG? because some have a separate gauge like formel E models whereas later models dont have this (is it integrated into the mfa on these?)
Nope, no oil pressure on these.
Some of the pre '85 clocks had the econometer you are talking of, but that measures actual MPG whereas the MFA does overall MPG
Some of the pre '85 clocks had the econometer you are talking of, but that measures actual MPG whereas the MFA does overall MPG
Right just been browsing the realms of etka and I've been taking note of whats required in terms of senders. Basically the only thing I need I think is the ambient air temp sensor. Its the same part number on both mk1 and mk2 golfs so I reckon I should be able to get hold of one from a scrapyard. I've asked vag parts for some prices but somehow I cant see it being very cheap. So does anyone know where its located on a mk2? on a mk1 it looks like its inside the front bumper.
cheers.
cheers.
On the mk2 it's on the nearside behind the front bumper, if you take the bumper off should be able to see it somewhere around the side clips.
cheers james. 8)
I might have one of these Gaz if you need it...
Cool steve, I'll let you know how I get on.
I'll have a look tomorrow. If it's where I think it is, it'll be an easy find 
Well I got the clocks in the post today. But miffed as the housing has been damaged where it screws to the dashboard. (basically the rubber bush at the bottom has been snapped off and the screw hole above it is only half there. Something that was omitted in the auction description. 
Anyway, I've been investigating the wiring layout and its very different to anything polo. For some reason it gets an oil pressure signal from the choke cable - which would explain why people have problems putting golf clocks into a polo. So some pin swapping will be required on the polo loom it seems
Also I cannot simply add more LEDs to the clocks (for choke and brake lights) as it only has one row of spaces, even though on the outside it appears to have two. So it looks like I will have to locate these elsewhere like they're located on golfs. I'm hoping at this point that they fit into a switch blank.
On the plus side the hall sensor fitted perfectly into the polo speedo, its just a case of checking it works now. 8)
These gauges have an economy gauge like a Formel E which should prove interesting when up and running. I'm slightly concerned about the change up light as I dont think 085 boxes were designed to have a top gear switch (all Formel E's are 4-speed) I may have to rig something up or possibly disconnect it. I would like it to work though, even if it is totally wrong.
Anyway, I've been investigating the wiring layout and its very different to anything polo. For some reason it gets an oil pressure signal from the choke cable - which would explain why people have problems putting golf clocks into a polo. So some pin swapping will be required on the polo loom it seems
Also I cannot simply add more LEDs to the clocks (for choke and brake lights) as it only has one row of spaces, even though on the outside it appears to have two. So it looks like I will have to locate these elsewhere like they're located on golfs. I'm hoping at this point that they fit into a switch blank.
On the plus side the hall sensor fitted perfectly into the polo speedo, its just a case of checking it works now. 8)
These gauges have an economy gauge like a Formel E which should prove interesting when up and running. I'm slightly concerned about the change up light as I dont think 085 boxes were designed to have a top gear switch (all Formel E's are 4-speed) I may have to rig something up or possibly disconnect it. I would like it to work though, even if it is totally wrong.
The Golf warning lights are in a "switch"-like package, beneath the headlight switch, it takes two lights (only 1 fitted on UK spec I think).
Bear in mind though that a GTI does not have a choke!
Bear in mind though that a GTI does not have a choke!
yeah I will have to get one from a GL or something. Just had a look on ebay but there arent any choke ones at the mo:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Dashboard-Handbrake-...1QQcmdZViewItem
They do look switch blank size...
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Dashboard-Handbrake-...1QQcmdZViewItem
They do look switch blank size...
QUOTE (Gaz)
Also I cannot simply add more LEDs to the clocks (for choke and brake lights) as it only has one row of spaces, even though on the outside it appears to have two. So it looks like I will have to locate these elsewhere like they're located on golfs. I'm hoping at this point that they fit into a switch blank.
These gauges have an economy gauge like a Formel E which should prove interesting when up and running. I'm slightly concerned about the change up light as I dont think 085 boxes were designed to have a top gear switch (all Formel E's are 4-speed) I may have to rig something up or possibly disconnect it. I would like it to work though, even if it is totally wrong.
These gauges have an economy gauge like a Formel E which should prove interesting when up and running. I'm slightly concerned about the change up light as I dont think 085 boxes were designed to have a top gear switch (all Formel E's are 4-speed) I may have to rig something up or possibly disconnect it. I would like it to work though, even if it is totally wrong.
You can add more LED's if you have the patience of a saint and a scrap circuit board to hand. Simply cut off the lugs from the old board and solder them onto the same places on the new board. The tracks should lead down to the plug eventually. Sounds easy doesn't it... Like hell it is! Soldering the lugs takes a while as the solder doesn't always take straight away even after cleaning the things up and likewise with the board which can get messy/melted if too much heat is applied. I did it many years ago fitting said lights into a Scirocco mk.2 clock set up to get the lights you mentioned but I couldn't be arsed nowadays
The switch for top gear stops the gauge from working in lower gears. Don't bother with it and have the gauge working all the time. The readings won't be right in the lower gears but you'll get an idea of how you're driving by where the gauge is.
Found you that sensor for air temp btw
Cool steve. I will PM you about that and some other stuff a little later. When I added a choke light to some normal rev counter clocks I had to do loads of bodging, but there is only one more set of tracks for an LED (the middle one of the top row; used for temp on later cars I think) and no tracks for any of the bottom row lights. Also the MFA circuitry obstructs the bottom row of LED holes anyway. So I'm going to take the easy option and put the golf choke and brake light indicator in the dash I think.
I've been looking further into the oil pressure circuit wiring and made a few observations. On later cars with high pressure switches, the terminal on the plug for low pressure on early ones is now high pressure, and the low pressure signal uses what used to be the choke indicator. Now my car only uses the low pressure switch so am I right in thinking that I can remove the high pressure stuff (which is a separate PCB) and just swap the oil pressure signal to the other pin? I'm a little confused actually as I tried tracing the pcb (with the help of a marker pen) and the late mk2 clocks I've got (from my ranger) seem to go to a different pin on the high pressure gubbins compared to the stuff on the MFA clocks.
(ie the high pressure and low pressre ones are reversed again but at the other end of the foil) I'm sure I'll figure it out eventually.
Oh by the way, I've got some mk1 golf mfa stalks on the way, but what I'm confused about is where these plug into on the clocks? The picture of them on ebay has a wire with a plug on it leading off somewhere, and I was kinda hoping that it went straight into the clocks.
When I added a choke light to some normal rev counter clocks I had to do loads of bodging, but there is only one more set of tracks for an LED (the middle one of the top row; used for temp on later cars I think) and no tracks for any of the bottom row lights. Also the MFA circuitry obstructs the bottom row of LED holes anyway. So I'm going to take the easy option and put the golf choke and brake light indicator in the dash I think.
I've been looking further into the oil pressure circuit wiring and made a few observations. On later cars with high pressure switches, the terminal on the plug for low pressure on early ones is now high pressure, and the low pressure signal uses what used to be the choke indicator. Now my car only uses the low pressure switch so am I right in thinking that I can remove the high pressure stuff (which is a separate PCB) and just swap the oil pressure signal to the other pin? I'm a little confused actually as I tried tracing the pcb (with the help of a marker pen) and the late mk2 clocks I've got (from my ranger) seem to go to a different pin on the high pressure gubbins compared to the stuff on the MFA clocks.
(ie the high pressure and low pressre ones are reversed again but at the other end of the foil) I'm sure I'll figure it out eventually.
Oh by the way, I've got some mk1 golf mfa stalks on the way, but what I'm confused about is where these plug into on the clocks? The picture of them on ebay has a wire with a plug on it leading off somewhere, and I was kinda hoping that it went straight into the clocks.
The plug doesn't go onto the clocks. It goes to the loom then to the clocks 
Ah right, the type of clocks you have has no circuitry for the bottom row of lights(of course MFA clocks...Doh!). No option really then other than the separate light route. I think the combined choke/handbrake light from a Golf is larger than the mk.2 Polo switch blank iirc?
Ah right, the type of clocks you have has no circuitry for the bottom row of lights(of course MFA clocks...Doh!). No option really then other than the separate light route. I think the combined choke/handbrake light from a Golf is larger than the mk.2 Polo switch blank iirc?
Damn. I dont fancy cutting up my chrome trim clock surround either.
Right been working out whats what for the connections. I've got most of its sussed thanks to the connectors being labelled (albeit in german.) Theres 14 wires on the standard connector and 6 wires for the supplementary connector, which has signals for the MFA as well as other stuff I cant work out.
This is what I've got so far:
1 -- Lighting
2 -- Ground
3 -- Fuel Gauge signal
4 -- Temp Gauge Signal
5 -- Goes to MFA (rev counter signal)
6 -- Goes to MFA (clock Power/MFA power)
7 -- Main Beam LED
8 -- Goes to MFA (on polos this is handbrake signal) Could be the switch input from the stalks
9 -- High Oil pressure signal
10 - Not used - Marked EGR and goes to an LED blank. Probably a US thing.
11 - Low Oil Pressure signal
12 - Alternator LED
13 - Indicator LED
14 - Switched Live
As for the MFA connector
1 Ground
2 Ambient Air Temp signal
3 Oil Temp Signal
4 SVA
5 SPERRV
6 SSA (Stop/Start Signal) Not sure if this is used
No idea what connector 4 and 5 are. As far as I know I've sussed all the connections I need. Anyone know better?
Cheers
This is what I've got so far:
1 -- Lighting
2 -- Ground
3 -- Fuel Gauge signal
4 -- Temp Gauge Signal
5 -- Goes to MFA (rev counter signal)
6 -- Goes to MFA (clock Power/MFA power)
7 -- Main Beam LED
8 -- Goes to MFA (on polos this is handbrake signal) Could be the switch input from the stalks
9 -- High Oil pressure signal
10 - Not used - Marked EGR and goes to an LED blank. Probably a US thing.
11 - Low Oil Pressure signal
12 - Alternator LED
13 - Indicator LED
14 - Switched Live
As for the MFA connector
1 Ground
2 Ambient Air Temp signal
3 Oil Temp Signal
4 SVA
5 SPERRV
6 SSA (Stop/Start Signal) Not sure if this is used
No idea what connector 4 and 5 are. As far as I know I've sussed all the connections I need. Anyone know better?
Cheers
SPERR Sperren implies blocking.
V could be Ventil (valve)
Overrun cut off ?
Just a guess. Couldn't see that signal on my set of Mk2 GTI 1990 Golf clocks.
David
V could be Ventil (valve)
Overrun cut off ?
Just a guess. Couldn't see that signal on my set of Mk2 GTI 1990 Golf clocks.
David
Nail on head dude, cheers! just been trawling through my mk2 polo wiring diagrams. The two at the bottom I couldnt figure out are indeed for a cutoff solenoid (in the consumption indicator) and the in-built shift change light.
8)
8)
Then I suppose the following acronym make sense for SVA.
S Schalt = change gear
V Vorschlag = suggestion
A Anzeige = indicator
Got the mfa Stalks today, fitted perfectly. Worked out that it needs power from a switched live and the output does indeed go to pin 8 of the clock multiplug (Found this out by putting the handbrake on and off) So far only the clock, elapsed time work (I haven't checked the speed yet) Everything else needs senders or wiring sorting
So far only the clock, elapsed time work (I haven't checked the speed yet) Everything else needs senders or wiring sorting
The finished article
Everything works great apart from the overall mpg gauge, which can reach 99mpg after about an hour of motorway driving.
Everything works great apart from the overall mpg gauge, which can reach 99mpg after about an hour of motorway driving.
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