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Foxie

6x9's and why to AVOID them

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Foxie

Full range 6x9's are generally seen as the kind of speaker you buy once and then never buy again.

The people that use them tend not to have heard anything better, so have no means to compare them or benchmark them.

There are a few facts about 6x9's, which need to be known:

They attract thieves.

They are incompatible with subwoofers that occupy the same airspace.

They drag the soundstage back, making the majority of the sound come from the rear of the car, which is unnatural, and sounds wrong in a large majority of cases.

They are usually mounted on a very weak baffle (i.e. a flimsy parcel shelf), meaning the sound they produce is not high quality.

They are not an essential ingredient in the ICE scene, despite what your mate Bazza might think.

6x9's that are slung on a parcel shelf, and that have a sub underneath them will not sound good.

The 6x9's will be 'beaten' by the air movement that the sub creates, and this will lead to them producing distorted sound.

Boxed 6x9's on a parcel shelf, although relieving the problem of airspace competition, will drag the soundstage back, making all the sound come from behind you. This has a negative effect on the imaging in the front of the car, and makes the music sound unnatural.

The money spent on 6x9's could be much better spent on a decent set of component speakers for the front end, and if the front end is right, the rear passengers will not need something behind them to enable them to hear the music.

6x9's are aimed at the common spotty irk who knows no better than to sling a pair on his parcel shelf. Don't fall for the marketing hype.

In 99% of cases, 6x9's have a negative effect on the sound as a whole, not a positive one.

Full stop. End of.

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jonsmart

You need to get yourself the audioscape door pods bridgey, granted there £180 but they cant be faulted on build and sound quality.

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Guest stuart_hatch

Nice one, more of the same here:

If a system has good front speakers, normally 5 inch or greater, and a sub woofer then the whole range of music can be played effectivly.

If 6x9's are then added in the parcel shelf, and are playing full range the following issues occur..

Bass cancellation, due to the subs and 6x9's playing the same frequencies. It also muddles the sound quite badly. Due to the subs and 6x9's effectively sharing the same enclosure. In some severe cases they can even get destroyed due to the subs pushing too much air around them.

Also in this type of setup the sound is dragged backwards, this is down to personal preference.

If the 6x9's are setup not to play full range they can be useful. If they are set up in a bandpass configuration so they only play midbass. Roughly 300Hz-80Hz then they can add the extra kick which smaller components can't. This is useful for car where getting big speakers up front is a problem. However the sound is still dragged backwards quite badly.

In many situations where midbass can be played from the front it is better in terms of SQ to remove the rear speakers. This way the sub bass cannot be pinpointed so all the sound appears to be coming from the front.

----------------------------------------------

If rear speakers are added for the rear fill affect then things are very different. The high end manufacturers often supply crossovers which provide an output specifically for this purpose. Normally then frequencies put out are in the local/low vocal range. These are also normally around 6-10db quieter than the front comps. This gives the rear passengers the illusion of having a full rang setup in the rear without muddling the front centre image for the driver.

Having these again is down to personal preference, however in my experience I've noticed it being more use in large cars.

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redsquare

i agree in every case but mine sound good in these homemade doorpods ;)

DSCF0616.jpg

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Guest QUANTUM

quote foxie "Full stop. End of." re 6x9

Can i ask how long you have been fitting / selling car audio ?

just being nosey ....

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phil5556

they can be a cheap solution for people like me who can't afford much though.... :)

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Foxie

or just dont buy them.. wait a little longer and get some front door speakers and a cheap amp off of ebay....

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Alex

When fitted to a stealth shelf they are, however, perfectly fine for people like me who couldn't give two fucks about top quality audio in their car.

If I want really high quality sound, I'll sit in front of my £2k home separates system and enjoy that.

Quite frankly, with road noise, engine noise and rattles not to mention that you're surrounded by glass it's not like you're making the most of expensive speakers by fitting them in a car.

I'm quite happy with my 6x9s and wanky cheap amp. They do the trick to a high enough quality for me to enjoy my music in my car.

Just my 2p.

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Guest sim0n_parker

at the end of the day,itd epends where you mount tem,if your running them ofy our stereo built in amp, or a seperet amp, what wiring your using for your seperet amp, cheap shity 8 gauge wiring aint gona do fuck all, u may aswell use standerd vag stereo cable to power it, and what wires you use to run the 6x9s of the ampo, standerd wiring or uprated speaker cable, also it depends how many joins you have in your wires, and what sort of connections you are using. crappy spade connecters will lose your sound quality, but if you solder every join you will not lose as musch if any quality. what wood you use to build your box's out of, if they are ported or sealed, if they are sealed have they been varnished on the inside to make the wood dense so it doesnt absorb the sound and has it been insulated with dynamat or any other sound proofing. at the end of the day i dont think its the kit you use its how you bodge it all together. if you know your stuff about stereos you will do it all properly, adjust your settings on your amp and stereo. use correct wiring size for wattage of amp and use correct wattage of amp for the wattage of the speakers/sub, use correct speaker cable, correct sixe box containing the correct amount of air for the sub to work in, and correct blah blah blah blah etc etc the list can go on and on and on,

basicaly if u mackle something together expect shit sound, spend some time doing research and time builing it properly expect some descent sound.

in my views i have pioneer 6x9's running of a pioneer amp, 2 12" subs running of a pioneer amo, a pioneer headunit using mosfet equaliser and a set of pheonix gold 5 n half inch components up front with tweeters running of a pheonix gold amp, and my system rocks, as i spend 99.9% of the time in my car i have to have a descent system.

simon

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Jimbob
i agree in every case but mine sound good in these homemade doorpods ;)  

DSCF0616.jpg

any chance redsquare you could do a how to guide on building your doorpods Thanks Jim.

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Yeti

I've got a set in my truck and they're fine for my uses. That's mainly because I listen to music, not a repeating bass loop with some bird singing the same line over and over again.

Personally, I find they give a good output, in terms of quality, volume, and range, without devoting all of my car's interior, and all of my wage packet, to the stereo. I don't care if kev in his saxo with his £3k install has more bass and volume than me, that's his loss.

Agreed with your point that if it's not installed properly, it won't give the best sound, but this is true of any speaker.

Other point is, keep your ICE modest, and chances are, no one will break your window and leg it with it. Drive around your local area putting out enough bass that people can feel it, and every stoner in your area will know your car's worth breaking into.

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Guest WildChild
When fitted to a stealth shelf they are, however, perfectly fine for people like me who couldn't give two fucks about top quality audio in their car.

If I want really high quality sound, I'll sit in front of my £2k home separates system and enjoy that.

Quite frankly, with road noise, engine noise and rattles not to mention that you're surrounded by glass it's not like you're making the most of expensive speakers by fitting them in a car.

I'm quite happy with my 6x9s and wanky cheap amp. They do the trick to a high enough quality for me to enjoy my music in my car.

Just my 2p.

Totally agree!

I have an MK1, no rattles of vibrations around the car, but the engine revs like a mofo 895cc. : /

i just wanted a headunit and 1 speaker or even... 2! :o just so i can listen to radio..

the only way i can do that without cutting into my presciously good condition car is to install 6x9s.. on a spare parcel shelf..

Due to the size of my car they sound fine, but as Krupa has mentioned, i dont give a f*ck about "pro audio" or anything near it, just want clear sound quality at a reasonable level to listen to radio or perhaps occasionally a few cd's..

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Guest Turbo

in my experience it depends on the car and the system, 6x9's have their advantages as well as their disadvantages and if they were so bad how come so many companies still make them?

Basicly I was a car audio fitter for just over a year and if they are set up propperly they can sound sweet! usualy if they sound bad or make an install sound crap then you are either using crap quality speakers or they are set up wrong

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Foxie

looks like you read none of that above :D

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Yeti

So how would you reccomend getting a fair-to-good quality of sound in a car with serious budgets in terms of money and space?

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Lyons

Decent headunit, then nice front comps, then a nice amp, then another amp with a sub.

(thats in order of budget, so if its small get a headunit if its big get the lot)

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Foxie

^ echo that :D

Yeti, if youre looking for ice drop me a PM with you are budget..etc and ill see what i can dig up off the net:D

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Yeti

Mk2 Squareback, I've got a Pioneer CD player, looking at spending about £30-50 for anything else.

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uel_coupe_s
I've got a set in my truck and they're fine for my uses. That's mainly because I listen to music, not a repeating bass loop with some bird singing the same line over and over again.

That is funny :lol:

I would like to see a "how to" on homemade front door pods.

Cheers.

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Guest pug306

I hate the way every forum I go on, everyone slates 6x9's for no real reason - at all. Ok, subwoofers occupy the bootspace and displace the air within it. But, by no means can a 12" subwoofer displace the 10cuF within the boot. The air displaced by the subwoofer will, if anything, aid the woofer cone of the 6x9. When the sub thrusts out, so does the 6x9, unless you are a retard and wired them out of phase.

Plus the fact, the "comps" that you praise so highly are the same as 6x9s. A 5" midrange has an operating range of about 300Hz > 6KHz, a subwoofer has an operating range of about 20Hz > 150Hz. The woofer from a 6x9 can quite nicely fill that gap whilst adding to the SQ.

Don't even start me on imaging and soundstage! By having comps up front and a sub in the boot, ALL the sound is in the front of the car, completely unbalanced causing a horrible empty sound. To fully fill the car with sound and create a soundstage, speakers should be equally mounted across the car. 6x9s create an easy way to balance the sound, not draw it to the back. If you don't have tweeters up front and install 6x9s, it will drag the sound to the back, but the same rules would apply even if you installed a pair of tweeters into the rear shelf.

A good quality head unit is all that makes the difference in a sound system. You can use the best quality amps in the world, but if the line source is crap, it will amplify crap and it will sound crap. Buy a very good head unit £250+ will see a good quality unit, and you won't find any difference between a £100 pair of Alpine mids and a £20 set of MacAudio mids.

They also make for a nice replacement for those who would like to keep boot space. You don't need a boot full of subs to get bass.

Without going nuts into frequency thresholds and crossover types, you can set up a nice system with a pair of comps up from, 6x9s in the back and a sub in the boot.

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Guest bass mekanik
I hate the way every forum I go on, everyone slates 6x9's for no real reason - at all. Ok, subwoofers occupy the bootspace and displace the air within it. But, by no means can a 12" subwoofer displace the 10cuF within the boot. The air displaced by the subwoofer will, if anything, aid the woofer cone of the 6x9. When the sub thrusts out, so does the 6x9, unless you are a retard and wired them out of phase.

Incorrect. with a typical hatchback by the time you have a sub enclosure in there you have occupied a third of the boot volume space already. depending on the subwoofer and the power to it, it can easily displace 10cuF. Further to this, by your analogy when a sub moves forward , even though the 6x9s are moving forward at the same time, it wont be by the same distance, nor will it be for the same period of time due to them reproducing different different frequencies. The problem would then be extended with 6x9s reaching their peak excursion and the added pressure from the sub STILL pushing on the 6x9 cone.

Plus the fact, the "comps" that you praise so highly are the same as 6x9s. A 5" midrange has an operating range of about 300Hz > 6KHz, a subwoofer has an operating range of about 20Hz > 150Hz. The woofer from a 6x9 can quite nicely fill that gap whilst adding to the SQ.

Again incorrect. a solid decent component set can play much further down the scale. E.g. the Exile XT component set has some (albeit not much) reponse down to 50htz. however given the frequency scale is logarithmic, by the time you are up to 55/60htz they are clean and concise. The "gap" as you describe does not take into account the overlap between the two that is made up by the slope on the crossover. if the slope is only 6db or 12db, this also smooths transision between the front and back. Even after all this have you never heard of midbass units???!!!(not midrange as you described) if you MUST fill the gap as you say, that can be done with up front midbass add on.

Don't even start me on imaging and soundstage! By having comps up front and a sub in the boot, ALL the sound is in the front of the car, completely unbalanced causing a horrible empty sound. To fully fill the car with sound and create a soundstage, speakers should be equally mounted across the car. 6x9s create an easy way to balance the sound, not draw it to the back. If you don't have tweeters up front and install 6x9s, it will drag the sound to the back, but the same rules would apply even if you installed a pair of tweeters into the rear shelf.

Horses for courses. My ear point forward and therefore pick up natural sound in front of me. not sure about yours?? do you even know what the description of a soundSTAGE is??? simple breakdown in terms of how SQ is actually judged in competition. an accurate soundstage in a vocal track has the lead vocal at the centre point in the FRONT of the vehicle on the dash board. it is easy to locate and each instrument should have a defined location. by installing rear speaker (ANY rear speakers) in a small hatch, even if the centre image is moved back by a matter of a few inches, to any human person it becomes impossible to locate the point source of the audio due to the way in which human perception of audio works. We pick up sound on a stereo basis on this judge distance and location- which is the reason a home audiophile system has two speakers equidistant from the listener, with the listeners position at the top of a equalateral triangle.

By the sound of things (pardon the pun) you do not actually LIKE the sound of a realistic soundstage, you prefer to be enveloped in the sound with it coming from all around you. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that as it is your personal preference. it does however make your arguement about soundstage completely and 100% innacurate.

A good quality head unit is all that makes the difference in a sound system. You can use the best quality amps in the world, but if the line source is crap, it will amplify crap and it will sound crap. Buy a very good head unit £250+ will see a good quality unit, and you won't find any difference between a £100 pair of Alpine mids and a £20 set of MacAudio mids.

wrong again. a system is only as good as the weakest link in its change. the source unit is very important thats right, in fact you could go even further and say the MOST important part of the system is the acutal quality of the original CD that you are plying and how it was recorded! HOWEVER, a £3K head unit with a £50 amp on a set of £50 components will still not sound as good as a £200 head unit on a £300 amp with a set of £300 components (generic example)

To say that you wont notice a difference between £20 mac mids and £100 mids however is bloody laughable. :roll:

They also make for a nice replacement for those who would like to keep boot space. You don't need a boot full of subs to get bass.
no arguements there- as a quick cheap fix with NO sub in the boot, they are a means to an end. This does NOT make them an ideal solution however.

Without going nuts into frequency thresholds and crossover types, you can set up a nice system with a pair of comps up from, 6x9s in the back and a sub in the boot.

like i said horses for courses. completely disagree but i think most of the points have already been stated.

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Acky

^^ owned :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

My Focal K2P's or what ever there called kick the bum of anything I have heard so far. When I have listened to my mates 100 quid components from Halfords and then listen to my Focals the sound difference is totally different you really can hear the quality.

And its all thanks to Faz, woo for Faz!!

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Foxie

bahahahah pug306 you got well and truly owned...

now fuck off with your french piece of shit.

bass mech, i love you.

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Yeti
Mk2 Squareback, I've got a Pioneer CD player, looking at spending about £30-50 for anything else.

So what speakers should I use?

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Guest pug306

I just want to say, I don't want to piss you guys off, but I'm trying to help out people who want to kit themselves up with reasonable sound for a decent price. The comments weren't directed at audio freaks but the majority of car users who want the best sound for the cheapest possible price.

Incorrect. with a typical hatchback by the time you have a sub enclosure in there you have occupied a third of the boot volume space already. depending on the subwoofer and the power to it, it can easily displace 10cuF.

Exactly, it is dependant on the subwoofer and power to it. And if you had the money and sense to afford a decent quality subwoofer and amp - why would you be even thinking about getting 6x9s anyway. The average user will go out and buy a £100 active sub from Halfrauds which is pretty poor at best, there is no way on earth something like that could displace 10cuF of air - ignoring the fact no boot is airtight anyway.

Again incorrect. a solid decent component set can play much further down the scale. E.g. the Exile XT component set has some (albeit not much) reponse down to 50htz. however given the frequency scale is logarithmic, by the time you are up to 55/60htz they are clean and concise. The "gap" as you describe does not take into account the overlap between the two that is made up by the slope on the crossover. if the slope is only 6db or 12db, this also smooths transision between the front and back.

BUT if you had the money to go out and buy a top notch set of comps. why would you be thinking about using 6x9s. With a decent crossover, you want to be looking at a 18-24dB drop, having a 6dB per octave drop just encourages poor sound quality at higher volumes where the speaker is attempting to reproduce frequencies out of its range. Overlapping the crossover frequencies is bad practice and will cause a higher volume at the given frequency where the speakers overlap causing a horrible uneven sound.

Horses for courses. My ear point forward and therefore pick up natural sound in front of me. not sure about yours?? do you even know what the description of a soundSTAGE is??? simple breakdown in terms of how SQ is actually judged in competition. an accurate soundstage in a vocal track has the lead vocal at the centre point in the FRONT of the vehicle on the dash board. it is easy to locate and each instrument should have a defined location.

I'm not talking about setting up the car for competitions! With a small hatch, your problem is - and again, I'm going to describe the people this article was aimed at in the beggining - trying to create a nice balanced sound. The majority of cars have speakers mounted in the door, at foot height. The sound from those speakers cannot possibly fill the whole car with an even balanced sound - especially since there is a whole host of objects to block/absorb the sound itself.

by installing rear speaker (ANY rear speakers) in a small hatch, even if the centre image is moved back by a matter of a few inches, to any human person it becomes impossible to locate the point source of the audio due to the way in which human perception of audio works. We pick up sound on a stereo basis on this judge distance and location- which is the reason a home audiophile system has two speakers equidistant from the listener, with the listeners position at the top of a equalateral triangle.

We pick up sound on a 3d basis. The human ear can pinpoint the location of sound, be it up, down, left or right. And you might find that a lot of musical tracks are encoded in a quadraphonic format, so by having your individual 4 channels - you actually benefit from having rear speakers.

wrong again. a system is only as good as the weakest link in its change. the source unit is very important thats right, in fact you could go even further and say the MOST important part of the system is the acutal quality of the original CD that you are plying and how it was recorded! HOWEVER, a £3K head unit with a £50 amp on a set of £50 components will still not sound as good as a £200 head unit on a £300 amp with a set of £300 components (generic example). To say that you wont notice a difference between £20 mac mids and £100 mids however is bloody laughable. :roll:

This is down to preference mate, I won't bother arguing. Its like trying to convince people that a £1300 Sony laptop isn't as good as a £800 Advent one, but just because it costs more money and has Sony on it, it is instantly better. People are always the same with audio equipment, they honestly think that just because their speakers/amp are made by Kicker, it is better quality. Put it this way, I had a Magnat (I think) amp that I bought faulty, and a Sony amp I bougt faulty. I stripped them down to replace the MoSFETs and a few of the IC's that had burnt out, and guess what - nooooooo, they were exactly the same components used inside, everything down to the PCB. So yeah, to be honest I do think that £40 non-branded speakers can sound equally as good as a set of £100 branded speakers, and sometimes better. Consumers are stupid for believing that branded higher price stuff is better than your budget Korean knock off.

If you were even reading this article (6x9's and why to AVOID them) in the first place, it would be because you have no idea about sound systems and would like some basic help. Not because you thought you might start getting into audio competitions and would love to read peoples valued opinions.

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