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damunk

no oil pressure with starter motor only  

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damunk

just finished rebuild of a 16v afh polo engine carb setup.  

 

thought id send some oil around the block with starter motor only.   but the after market oil pressure gauge did not budge.

 

did 3 seconds then stop  

another 3 seconds then stop  

then 5 seconds and then stop    

 

the oil pump is brand new. the oil level is correct. the oil pump simply fits onto crank end and as crank spins, it spins.  

the oil filter was pre-filled with oil but apart from that all the galleries would be bare dry hence wanting to do a slow prime with starter motor.  

 

worth just putting plugs in , fuel up and give it a start?   

 

 p.s the oil pressure gauge is located at the very top far side of the engine with a 1.5 metre tubing to the gauge it self.

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dvderlm

Mine (equus electrical remote sensor on head)  will definitely  move when oil is warm if crank on starter motor only (like when I've disconnected the Hall sender).

Is it correct level after spinning as the oil filter will have filled up?

(difference from max level on dipstick probably not enough to matter)

 

Mechanical gauge I assume, so long thin tube from head might have air in it.

If you unscrew the head end / take off is it oily or dry?

 

Any assembly errors (timing) would have been found turning by hand twice, so smooth spinning on starter is probably good sign.

Go for it.

 

If this is new cams you need to run it fast (2000-3000rpm) for several minutes ( from memory).

 

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damunk

yea new cams. but im more bothered about why starter after a few seconds aint enough to get this gauge showing a reading.

 

oil was cold but not been a cold day today.

 

did you do it on a afh head?

 

gauge might have air in it. i used an air gun just to test it to see if it was working before i plugged it in and it was.

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damunk

born dry at top of head. took temp gauge off and there no oil what so ever coming out of top of head.

i think i must need more rpm.

 

it's a new starter motor i bought from ebay. maybe it doesnt spin it fast enough.

 

will have to splash some more oil on the camshafts and maybe try starting engine with properly and hope timings right.

 

just concerned about piston rings, had about 12-15 seconds of work without oil.

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damunk

might take oil filter off and see if oil splashes out. oil filter is half way down on engine so that's near to pump.

 

got a feeling oil filter was only full 3/4's as didnt want to spill it on engine.

 

Edited by damunk

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nige8021

On other engines I've worked on, if the pump was brand new you had to prime the pump by packing it with vaseline so it had something to work with to get the suction going 

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damunk

so i've got to take the engine to bits to put some vaseline on the pump?

 

rather find a way to shoot some oil down the oil filter hole.

 

 

Edited by damunk

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nige8021

I'm only saying on other engines you need to pack the pump with vaseline or similar, preferably before you assemble the whole engine !!

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damunk

well that's where ive messed up or 200 rpm isnt enough to send it up.

 

got limited time of course to sort this out as rings could wear

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dvderlm

 

4 hours ago, damunk said:

did you do it on a afh head?.

No, AHW and GK heads. But with the original fitted pump.

On the GK I had an engine preheater warming the coolant and block to 60 degrees.

 

Can you tilt engine safely? 

So oil flows out of filter and towards pump.

 

You can always lube the cylinder walls / piston rings through spark plug holes.

 

Think AFH has roller bearing rockers, so less critical for the cam lobes.

See the source image

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damunk

the lobes are fine, put joe gibbs grease on them and oiled them proper. i might get some wd40 and spray it through the spark plug oil to cause a flood/mist lol

 

ermm im going to jack car up at one end. i got a hand oil pump with a 10mm diameter tubing which im going to shove it down oil filter hole and pump it down the the oil pump.

 

 

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dvderlm

Great stuff.

 

I'd just use engine oil not WD40.

 

(I used Millers "Running In" oil on the GK

https://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-115257-millers-oils-cro-10w-40-competition-running-in-mineral-engine-oil.aspx

and now have some Graphogen for next year's project ).

 

 

 

 

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damunk

pity you don't live closer to me lol always good to have a sound mechanic by your side 

 

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dvderlm

Are you writing that through beer goggles?

It took me nearly 6 weekends to do a flywheel clutch change and destroyed the old starter bendix WIN_20180528_11_00_24_Pro.jpg

 

You'll sort it.

 

 

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damunk

lol still better two have two eyes watching;

 

anyway.

took oil filter out, was dry around the housing, should be wet with oil.

shoved a pipe down gallery towards oil pump, hand oil pumped oil down that gallery until it spewed back out around the pipe.

cranked engine on starter and oil poured out from oil filter hole.  well i could hear it spilling onto floor. did it three times.

obvsiuly with two sets of eyes, could have been 100% certain but like i said , did it a few times and oil was coming out onto floor everytime i was cranking it.


am i good to go? how long before oil pump dries out ?

 

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dvderlm

How long? How viscous is the oil. A few days, just look how a dipstick stays wet.

 

Pump works then. Hooray.

There's oil around and after the pump now.

You could do that again, turn crank in reverse gently with a socket on bottom pulley (careful nut does not loosen)  and then there's oil all around the pump cog lobes and before pump.

Refit oil filter, plugs, treble check fuel lines to carb for leaks.

Be ready to cut engine, have fire extinguisher on route from ignition key to bonnet, then go for it.

 

Manual choke carb?

Be prepared to pump the gas pedal to get it started or keep it running.

Don't let it idle for minutes. Cut the engine and put bonnet down, let latent heat warm it  up 5 mins then repeat with bonnet up..

 

Edited by dvderlm

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damunk

just had a nightmare with carbs. leaks everywhere , petrol stink all over, sorted now. seems things needed tightning up extra for some reason on the carbs. they were leaking from the bowl drains. i drained fuel out before carbs were sat for a year or so.

 

everything fitted,  default megajolt map , old fire extinguisher at hand (5-6 years old) lol.

 

going to get a mechanic i know to watch it for leaks .

 

hope to get it going tomorrow. theres was shit loads of oil coming out when i cranked it. i hope it wasn't just the oil i filled the gallery with.!!!

 

from starting the engine at 2000rpm how long would you say it would take to go from oil filter to all galleries and up to sensor to see a reading. 4 seconds? (oil filter filled 3/4's full)

4 seconds, dont see owt , then cut it off?

 

 

 

 

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damunk

is there a possibility that the oil i fed through the gallery from oil filter hole to the oil pump was the only oil that was squirting out from the oil filter hole when cranking ?

 

is this scientifically possible or must there have been oil dragged from the pan up the pickup pipe into pump that forced the oil i fed through, back out? that's all i need to know now

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dvderlm

No, the pump cog lobes must have pressed oil, creating a seal to lift oil from sump..

Air compresses, oil does n/ot.

 

///

Once engine fires I'd expect high pressure reading very quickly. But the thick oil has got to reach the gauge down a thin tube. It can force itself between bearings and down the tube, so long as it can't come out anywhere else.

Three tries of a few seconds at 2000 ish with 5 minutes between tries. 

 

Pressure will drop from 5 or 6 bar when oil cold to 3 bar once warm. New engine has high friction and will run hot..

 

 

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damunk

cheers, 

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dvderlm
3 hours ago, damunk said:

just had a nightmare with carbs. leaks everywhere , petrol stink all over, sorted now. seems things needed tightning up extra for some reason on the carbs. they were leaking from the bowl drains. i drained fuel out before carbs were sat for a year or so.

nitrile rubber diaphragms/washers gone hard I assume

 

Do you need a mechanic or a fireman?

 

😉 getting there.

Edited by dvderlm

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damunk

well i had fuel running through them non stop for a couple of minutes and no leaks.

 

because they were dry , like u said washers would have been hard. but its all good now.

 

now thats fuels in them, i think it should soften the washers rubbers etc.

 

 

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dvderlm

Yep.

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steveo3002

When I've messed with engines it's taken more than a few cranks time get the light out.and yes vasleine in the pump gets them working faster

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damunk

dropped some oil down spark plug hole. think i over did it, about a tea spoon in each one. could even see reflection of my eye in it .

 

cranked it on starter motor , took around 5 seconds and got oil pressure, 2 bar, then 3 bar, 4, then 5 bar then turned it off. seemed like it was going to go over that aswell. the gauge only goes to 8 bar.

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