Exactly, it is dependant on the subwoofer and power to it. And if you had the money and sense to afford a decent quality subwoofer and amp - why would you be even thinking about getting 6x9s anyway. The average user will go out and buy a £100 active sub from Halfrauds which is pretty poor at best, there is no way on earth something like that could displace 10cuF of air - ignoring the fact no boot is airtight anyway.

Fair point, however most people who are into ICE in some way or another go down the typical route of buying 6x9's first and then realising that actually there is LOADS better out there for the same sort of money! Besides there are plenty of people who have enough cash to buy a decent system scratch but dont have the knowledge of what to look at- and in any case, an vibe active sub with a set of comps up front will STILL sound better than 6x9s and a set of comps up front!

BUT if you had the money to go out and buy a top notch set of comps. why would you be thinking about using 6x9s. With a decent crossover, you want to be looking at a 18-24dB drop, having a 6dB per octave drop just encourages poor sound quality at higher volumes where the speaker is attempting to reproduce frequencies out of its range. Overlapping the crossover frequencies is bad practice and will cause a higher volume at the given frequency where the speakers overlap causing a horrible uneven sound.

absolutely WRONG. Even a short slope crossover has its uses, more importantly a REALLY good crossover will allow switching between slopes for different applications. (e.g. the eclipse DCU-105 allows switching from 6db to 48db slopes) overlapping frequencies is definately NOT bad practice as more often than not it allows for smoother transition from one driver to another. IF it results in a boost in a given frequency range that is extreme then that can in a worst case scenario be EQ'd out. if an EQ isnt available then there are plenty of other solutions. change axis of the driver etc.

I'm not talking about setting up the car for competitions! With a small hatch, your problem is - and again, I'm going to describe the people this article was aimed at in the beggining - trying to create a nice balanced sound. The majority of cars have speakers mounted in the door, at foot height. The sound from those speakers cannot possibly fill the whole car with an even balanced sound - especially since there is a whole host of objects to block/absorb the sound itself.

Almost right, agree that a car is one of the harshest possible acoustic environments, and if you take an RTA reading at one point and then move the mic 3 inches in another direction the curve will completely change due to differing reflections/materials etc etc. however youve missed the point. as a driver you dont sit in the whole car- you sit in one seat. all the time. whenever you drive. having a "balanced sound" does not entail having audio flying at you from all directions. when was the last time that you saw rear speakers at a concert of 10'000 people? In ANY PROFESSIONAL concert, the sound engineer is located pricely in front of the stage and proportionately 1/3 of the distance back from the edge of the stage directly towards the back. Most people dont actually realise that the best place to experience the sound at a concert is not front row- its where the sound engineer is as that is the precise point where all the audio is focused. This is the "sweet spot" in the auditorium and is where the term soundstage actually originates from.

Regardless of whether the car is set up for competition or not. balanced sound comes from in front of you- not from all around you!! Regardless of what you may or may not beleive it is entirely possible to have a awesome sound up front with components in stock locations (attention to detail on install, sound deaden, tweeter positioning) WITH a realistic soundstage even on a budget. if you dont beleive that- I would say you have yet to hear a decent system.

We pick up sound on a 3d basis. The human ear can pinpoint the location of sound, be it up, down, left or right. And you might find that a lot of musical tracks are encoded in a quadraphonic format, so by having your individual 4 channels - you actually benefit from having rear speakers.

Not quite right actually. whilst we pick up sound on a 3d basis, the human ear can pinpoint right and left on a flat 180 degree plane in front of the head (i.e. stereo) quite accurately. height however is MUCH more difficult for the human ear to locate (3rd dimension), when you move BEHIND the ears, then that sense of location goes way off balance.

As for music encoded in quadraphonic format- what planet do you live on??? MOST modern day MUSIC studios will still adhere to the traditional stereo format with a pair of studio monitors either side of the engineers desk. I have first experience of this as I have a friend generates tones for Roland who create some of the best studio equipment on the market, as such I've been to a number of studios with him. Not only that two of my best friends are music artists and i used to record in the studio myself!

More importantly however, even quadraphonic recording and for that matter ANY multichannel format (5.1, 5.1e, 5.1ex, Dolby, DTS, Pro Logic, THX - the list goes on) will still ALWAYS have the main focus of audio from the front three channels (right, left centre). Vocals, drum kit, guitars (whether bass or acoustic) piano, ANY instrument or voice always comes from the front. The only exceptions to this rule are specific sound effects and this is much more prominent in movie mastering which has more of this type of requirement. (e.g. the sound effect of a bullet flying past the listeners head) the ironic thing is the other main exception is the sound of the audience (for example if you are watching a live concert on DVD) comes from all around you in this environment... which is actually true to form, because as a listener you are part of the audience!!

This is down to preference mate, I won't bother arguing. Its like trying to convince people that a £1300 Sony laptop isn't as good as a £800 Advent one, but just because it costs more money and has Sony on it, it is instantly better. People are always the same with audio equipment, they honestly think that just because their speakers/amp are made by Kicker, it is better quality. Put it this way, I had a Magnat (I think) amp that I bought faulty, and a Sony amp I bougt faulty. I stripped them down to replace the MoSFETs and a few of the IC's that had burnt out, and guess what - nooooooo, they were exactly the same components used inside, everything down to the PCB. So yeah, to be honest I do think that £40 non-branded speakers can sound equally as good as a set of £100 branded speakers, and sometimes better. Consumers are stupid for believing that branded higher price stuff is better than your budget Korean knock off.

And I'm WELL aware that there are loads of manfacturers who share components with other brands- hell I can name several off the top of my head!!! (directed amplifiers - viper amplifiers. both the same. memphis audio and SPL dynamics- identical. I could go on but theres no need to) I used the £3K head unit as a generic example (as a £3K head definately will be very different to a £200 one!) But even so I'm sure you are aware that you get what you pay for. simple.

Either way, that still didnt address my original point that you say a "good quality head unit is all that makes a difference in a sound system" thats total rubbish- there are LOADS more factors thatn that- EVEN in a low end budget system.

If you were even reading this article (6x9's and why to AVOID them) in the first place, it would be because you have no idea about sound systems and would like some basic help.

TOTALLY agree- which is why you should start on the basic route of getting it right from the outset. why do people slate 6x9s? I'l tell you why- if they have half a brain its from experience! When i first got into audio 10 years ago it was the first thing i done. 6 1/2" up front and 6x9" on the shelf. the system lasted around two months before i realised it was no where near enough and i needed to upgrade- hence it was money wasted. Which is precisely what we are trying to stop people doing by giving them the right adivce from the BEGINNING on here.

owned, AGAIN :)

Your sub has too much travel foxie. I don't know much about the rest of whats been said but i had front speakers and 6x9's when i had a small budget and now i have more money i have an Alpine headunit, rockford components and a sub.

owned, AGAIN :)

if i remember correctly i owned you yesterday :-D

i agree with everything bass mechanik has said not much more to add really

deajam ho has foxies sub got to much excursion or travel as you like to put it

can i join in ?

its an open forum- dont see why not!

So would i get away with having two amps one with a two out put and 3 subs? i will probably need to take out my front two speakers under the windcreen replace or leve? if i just had subs would it sound good or bad?

Fair point, however most people who are into ICE in some way or another go down the typical route of buying 6x9's first and then realising that actually there is LOADS better out there for the same sort of money! Besides there are plenty of people who have enough cash to buy a decent system scratch but dont have the knowledge of what to look at- and in any case, an vibe active sub with a set of comps up front will STILL sound better than 6x9s and a set of comps up front!

Dude, I'm not saying that 6x9s should replace a subwoofer outright, its a cheaper option than having to buy a subwoofer and most people get them because of space constraints. Subwoofers take up boot space, and if you actually use your car its worthwhile to some to have a full boot. Comps (around the same price range as some 6x9s) have no bass response whatsoever, only if you spend £150+ you might see something with a half decent response - but even then, you'll find its a 5" cone which would never fit in an OEM door card/dash.

overlapping frequencies is definately NOT bad practice as more often than not it allows for smoother transition from one driver to another. IF it results in a boost in a given frequency range that is extreme then that can in a worst case scenario be EQ'd out. if an EQ isnt available then there are plenty of other solutions. change axis of the driver etc.

I think your losing the trail here, we are talking about home users, not people who will be taking part in competitions. Why on earth would a home user opt to have an expensive active crossover and decent eq. The whole point of this article is to discourage people from 6x9s, not to tell them how to rig up their car for proffessional displays. If someone was considering 6x9s they would be spending between 30 and 100 quid, for your kit, you want well over that, and they wouldnt even have speakers!

Almost right, agree that a car is one of the harshest possible acoustic environments, and if you take an RTA reading at one point and then move the mic 3 inches in another direction the curve will completely change due to differing reflections/materials etc etc. however youve missed the point. as a driver you dont sit in the whole car- you sit in one seat. all the time. whenever you drive. having a "balanced sound" does not entail having audio flying at you from all directions. when was the last time that you saw rear speakers at a concert of 10'000 people?

I think you missed the point, when was the last time you were in a concert travelling at 70mph - I'm pretty sure you haven't been. If the car is stationary its all well and good trying to preach that, but who just goes and sits in their car to listen to their music - without driving it? And not many concert halls have other environment sounds in the background, usually an engine and exhaust is an uneccessary component in a concert hall. It is likely that when you are driving at about 70mph you will be listening to your music at about 6 times the volume you would listen to it at if you were stationary. So, you will be increasing the volume and putting a greater strain on the speakers, with only 2 speakers up front you will be driving them twice as hard as if you had 4 speakers. The fact that most HU that people buy as their first will start clipping at about 60% volume, you will be driving the speakers with a distorted sound, rather than a Sine wave, it will be square. Which causes the speaker to sit at full excursion for an extended period of time, which in turn will cause early failure. Thats an extreme situation, but most people don't understand that distortion will destroy a speaker and quite happily listen to it with their speakers popping. Wouldn't it be FAR more suitable to have a set of speakers in the rear which could compensate for this increase in background noise, maybe a set that are fully crossed over, easy to install with a decent frequency range at a low price?

Not quite right actually. whilst we pick up sound on a 3d basis, the human ear can pinpoint right and left on a flat 180 degree plane in front of the head (i.e. stereo) quite accurately. height however is MUCH more difficult for the human ear to locate (3rd dimension), when you move BEHIND the ears, then that sense of location goes way off balance.

Just listen to that, then tell me about our 3d sound perception. http://gprime.net/flash.php/soundimmersion

As for music encoded in quadraphonic format- what planet do you live on??? MOST modern day MUSIC studios will still adhere to the traditional stereo format with a pair of studio monitors either side of the engineers desk. I have first experience of this as I have a friend generates tones for Roland who create some of the best studio equipment on the market, as such I've been to a number of studios with him. Not only that two of my best friends are music artists and i used to record in the studio myself!

This I can't really comment on, as I haven't really mucked about with studio equipment. But, only through personal experience, a lot of my (original) albums have phantom sound coming from the rear channels that do not come from the front channels. Also, in the past, whilst travelling, I have hooked my laptop up to my stereo (only through a crappy FM modulator - which is barely stereo) through the 3.5mm headphone jack. And doing so have found that all films still display the same surround sound tendancies - environmental sound from rear and speech from front, with the same bullets flying past head type sound too. There is obviously still some encoding methods that allow 4 channel sound to be reproduced through a standard 'stereo' stereo.

And I'm WELL aware that there are loads of manfacturers who share components with other brands- hell I can name several off the top of my head!!! (directed amplifiers - viper amplifiers. both the same. memphis audio and SPL dynamics- identical. I could go on but theres no need to) I used the £3K head unit as a generic example (as a £3K head definately will be very different to a £200 one!) But even so I'm sure you are aware that you get what you pay for. simple.

To a reasonable extent, I agree with you, after all, I always buy proffessional tools. But I've found with audio equipment it is a mess. There is no continuation of quality with the same Manufacturers, its not that they make poor cheap equipment, but its the fact they just rebrand other rubbish and pass it off as their own. It doesnt really inspire much confidence for the rest of their equipment. I will always remain dubious of most audio equipment until I have heard it myself.

Either way, that still didnt address my original point that you say a "good quality head unit is all that makes a difference in a sound system" thats total rubbish- there are LOADS more factors thatn that- EVEN in a low end budget system.

I will definately stand by my decision on the HU. The majority of home users will not use a secondary amp for their F+R channels. So they rely on the HU for amplification, audio processing, eq and the cd sampler itself.

TOTALLY agree- which is why you should start on the basic route of getting it right from the outset. why do people slate 6x9s? I'l tell you why- if they have half a brain its from experience! When i first got into audio 10 years ago it was the first thing i done. 6 1/2" up front and 6x9" on the shelf. the system lasted around two months before i realised it was no where near enough and i needed to upgrade- hence it was money wasted. Which is precisely what we are trying to stop people doing by giving them the right adivce from the BEGINNING on here.

All I wanted to clarify is that 6x9s aren't the end of the world for car installs. They are pretty good at their job and produce a good range of sounds. The discussion of soundstage is obviously something completely different, and for that a thread should be called "Rear tweeters and why to avoid them". If you are just someone who would like to keep your boot space, without devoting all your time to building the best enclosure to still keep boot space and get the most from the sub.

If you actually plan on setting up a proffessional setup, and you are going to install a full range of speakers, it really isn't neccessary to buy 6x9s. If you are not going to install a sub, then I highly reccomend them, as no comp. speaker in the same price range can touch them.

Edited 3 June, 200620 yr by pug306

Got a mk3.

got a head unit with 4x45 power.

planning on running 2 6x9's and some upgraded dash speakers.

enlighten me

I don't want to join in, but, am I right in thinking "pug306" registered on the forum just to argue about 6x9s....?

Am I missing the point?

Posts: 4

Joined: May 2004

He's been here a while it seems

I don't want to join in, but, am I right in thinking "pug306" registered on the forum just to argue about 6x9s....?

Lol, nah mate, I was a member on here a long time ago but I don't think I ever really posted. As the name gives away, I drive a Peugeot 306, so I spend most of my time irratating the folk on the PGAC forums.

I just like to throw my 2 pence in for debate. I would post on the other sections, but I can't really comment on the particulars of a VW repair, without just giving a general answer.

Ah fair enough mate. I only saw your post count, never bothered to read the rest.

Just seemed a bit besides the point if you had joined just to argue :p

oookkk here we go again! You have an interesting take on the subject and argue your points well i'l give you that -respect is due (and earned in my opinion) however I still see many of your points as wrong!

Dude, I'm not saying that 6x9s should replace a subwoofer outright, its a cheaper option than having to buy a subwoofer and most people get them because of space constraints. Subwoofers take up boot space, and if you actually use your car its worthwhile to some to have a full boot.

Space is another issue altogether- No one has EVER said big sub boxes in the boot are practical and i will be the first to agree with that given whenever I have to load stuff around I have to use the passat instead of the polo as i have NO boot left at all! However even price is a matter of opinion!! There are plenty of SILLY expensive 6x9's out there as well. e.g CDT Audio did a pair which retailed at nearly £300!! I also did say earlier that as a cheap quick solution they will "do the job" this does NOT mean however that they will sound "good"

Comps (around the same price range as some 6x9s) have no bass response whatsoever, only if you spend £150+ you might see something with a half decent response - but even then, you'll find its a 5" cone which would never fit in an OEM door card/dash.

Comps arent designed to do "bass"- I never said they would and never will because they arent!. That is exactly what a subwoofer is for! A decent set of components will still give a solid response at 80htz ad above though which is precisely where mid-bass region start (up to around 400htz or so- beyond that is midrange to 3Khtz)

Your arguement about size and OEM locations however is COMPLETELY wrong. Nearly ALL manufacturers produce mids/coaxs in the standard sizes of: 6.5" and 5 1/4". Why? because these are pretty much uniform sizes for OEM locations for near enough all manufacturers. E.G

Pretty much ALL VAG cars from 1994 onwards have OEM 6.5" slots: golf mk3, golf mk4, polo mk4, polo mk5, passat, bora, sharan, beetle, Caddy, corrado, Lupo, Fabia, Octavia, Superb, Arosa, Alhambra, Cordoba, Ibiza, Toledo, Leon.

Think I'm favouring the german variety? ok you own a 306, so lets look at the french: ALL the following have either 5 1/4" or 6.5" OEM locations: saxo, xsara, xantia, 106, 206, 306, 406, 806, 307, 405, 605, clio, laguna, megane, scenic, vel satis

I could go on with different manufacturers but I'm sure everyone would get bored!! (and besides, I would have to then go and research it, those ones are off top of my head from actually fitting in all of the above) Bottom line is near enough all manufacturers use a set size range of speakers that are pretty easy to change (apart from 6x9s that is-very few OEM's of those- can only think of the honda civic off hand!)

Obviously there is the issue of moutning depth but given that in most applications there are speaker adaptors available which provide normally an inch or more, as well as the facty that there are LOADS of cheap option shallow mount components which STILL perform well- its pretty much a moot point. Even after all this- in any case dont you think its better to stick to stock locations rather than hack up the parcel shelf with a jigsaw??? its certainly more work and ALWAYS attracts theives to the car. I'm sure you will argue against this with a stealth shelf- well given they can cost around £100 (for a PROPER OEM look shelf) thats money totally wasted that could actually be spent on making the system sound better!!

I think your losing the trail here, we are talking about home users, not people who will be taking part in competitions. Why on earth would a home user opt to have an expensive active crossover and decent eq. The whole point of this article is to discourage people from 6x9s, not to tell them how to rig up their car for proffessional displays. If someone was considering 6x9s they would be spending between 30 and 100 quid, for your kit, you want well over that, and they wouldnt even have speakers!

Point taken, but as above i said they are a "do the job" type product. most people who get into ICE automatically go down the route of thinking "ok I want to start with three sets of 6x9s on my back shelf- that will sound banging!" reality check- no it bloody well wont!! Take a simple look at the market and the reasons behind that thought and it actually doesnt take a genius to figure out why- because the market tells them they are the best thing since sliced bread! Any lads tuning mag- max power, fast car, redline etc, has a plethora of them in wierd installs that are designed simply for show. Manufacturers produce them because they know they will sell and cost sod all to make- hence whilst the illusion continues for most people, the market itself wont change! I agree the EQ and additional kit can certainly add up and become expensive, but as i said, changing driver axis, and even simple things like adjustments on head unit can alter the experience completely.

More to the point this section of the forum is for ICE enthusiasts- more likely people who read this will want to learn the BEST way of acheiving a good solid sound- not neccesarily the cheapest.

I think you missed the point, when was the last time you were in a concert travelling at 70mph - I'm pretty sure you haven't been. If the car is stationary its all well and good trying to preach that, but who just goes and sits in their car to listen to their music - without driving it? And not many concert halls have other environment sounds in the background, usually an engine and exhaust is an uneccessary component in a concert hall. It is likely that when you are driving at about 70mph you will be listening to your music at about 6 times the volume you would listen to it at if you were stationary.

Yes I have- my car! (bad arguement I know- I have 3£K worth of kit and over £400 worth of sound deadening! )

Seriously though, Road noise will be MORE of an issue with rear speakers and fronts, rather than a sub and comps up front. Its easier to combat road noise with proper bass extension rather than the mid-bass of a 6x9 which is directional and wont be heard fully up front anyway. (although the best way is obviously sound deadening- and even this can be done CHEAP with flashing tape from flippin B&Q- only costs £10 a roll and two rolls will cover a hatchback boot easily)

Besides that point in my previous post was regarding Soundstage and not Roadnoise- two utterly different issues altogether.

So, you will be increasing the volume and putting a greater strain on the speakers, with only 2 speakers up front you will be driving them twice as hard as if you had 4 speakers. The fact that most HU that people buy as their first will start clipping at about 60% volume, you will be driving the speakers with a distorted sound, rather than a Sine wave, it will be square. Which causes the speaker to sit at full excursion for an extended period of time, which in turn will cause early failure. Thats an extreme situation, but most people don't understand that distortion will destroy a speaker and quite happily listen to it with their speakers popping.

Again I never said comps on their own would be enough- you would need a sub to complete the frequency range. (something you couldnt do with 6x9s and fronts) I know exactly what clipping is thanks! You are also MORE likely to clip speakers off a head unit than an amplifier- why? because even a budget amplifier at £100 will still kick out at least 2 or 3 times the power of ANY head unit (there isnt a single head unit on the UK market that will do more than 4 x 22 watts RMS) I'm sure you know as well as I do that clipping occurs at the point where the amplifier has not enough power to send a clean sine wave- hence more power (which obviously requires an off board amp and not a head unit amp) is the only real solution to clipping - or just turn the flippin volume down- but the 6x9 kids dont tend to want to do that!

Just listen to that, then tell me about our 3d sound perception. http://gprime.net/flash.php/soundimmersion

Ahhhh the good old Binaureal Studio Recording argument. Let me let you in on a little secret- its an illusion . First off the effect can only ever be accurately be reproduced using headphones. The recording tricks the brain into beleiving it can hear "3 dimensions" when actually-its a generated pattern of designed to do exactly that. Want to know how it does this? Its through the recording method.

When a Binaureal Recording is done, it uses two microphones placed either side of a dummy head inset INSIDE the head at the tip of moulds that are shaped like a human ear approximately 7-8 inches apart from each other. Now this is the key part, because of the technique, the recording factors in generic shapes of the ear canal as well as the natural sonic shaping the "average" face of human will create and COMPENSATES for those in order for the effect to APPEAR to sound 3 dimensional through the listener hearing the sound in the EXACT location it was actually recorded i.e. insde the ear!.

Whilst we as humans have a basic perception of the 3rd dimension, it is comparitively VERY weak to what we can hear in front of us and is much more "nuances of sound" rather than accurate point positioning.

Furthermore, how many studios use the above technique when recording music? hardly ANY. The only real major use of Binaureal in terms of Music has been some experiementation with Live orchestras, but in terms of real world production, not only are there very very few cd's out there with this type of recording format, but it is physically impossible to replicate the above effect without headphones- given car speakers are well over a meter from your head- it wouldnt work!

This I can't really comment on, as I haven't really mucked about with studio equipment. But, only through personal experience, a lot of my (original) albums have phantom sound coming from the rear channels that do not come from the front channels.

The irony here is that most head units (even some pricey ones) wont actually produce all four seperate channels as they are on a cd, you need a player that is capable of decoding multichannel audio- IN THE ORIGINAL FORMAT IT WAS WRITTEN before the system will actually play that way and that can get expensive (e.g. in car pro logic and 5.1 decoders- there arent many about as it is- and definately very very few head units with them) but then people will say "well theres still plenty of music out of the rear channels- what is it then?" the answer is simple- its the front two bloody channels replicated and played through the rears- defeats the WHOLE point of stereo imaging!!

Also, in the past, whilst travelling, I have hooked my laptop up to my stereo (only through a crappy FM modulator - which is barely stereo) through the 3.5mm headphone jack. And doing so have found that all films still display the same surround sound tendancies - environmental sound from rear and speech from front, with the same bullets flying past head type sound too. There is obviously still some encoding methods that allow 4 channel sound to be reproduced through a standard 'stereo' stereo.

As I said before, multichannel formats within movie mastering ARE common. I have a 5.1 at home and I love it, but when I play music through it, I switch it to stereo mode as it becomes disjointed and is hard to locate

To a reasonable extent, I agree with you, after all, I always buy proffessional tools. But I've found with audio equipment it is a mess. There is no continuation of quality with the same Manufacturers, its not that they make poor cheap equipment, but its the fact they just rebrand other rubbish and pass it off as their own. It doesnt really inspire much confidence for the rest of their equipment. I will always remain dubious of most audio equipment until I have heard it myself.

Difficult to tar all manufacturers with the same brush, but then i suppose I'm lucky enough to be able to know how to tell the difference and where to check first etc so i guess that makes sense. In fairness I normally reserve judgement till I have heard kit first as well- its the only way to know for sure really.

I will definately stand by my decision on the HU. The majority of home users will not use a secondary amp for their F+R channels. So they rely on the HU for amplification, audio processing, eq and the cd sampler itself.

The majority of people who use this board I would not class as "home users" I would class as "enthusiasts who modify their cars". Either way we both know the above isnt the way to get the best sounding result so will have to agree to disagree here.

oookkk here we go again! You have an interesting take on the subject and argue your points well i'l give you that -respect is due (and earned in my opinion) however I still see many of your points as wrong!

Much could also be said of your own :p I've got to admit, even though on paper, 6x9s are evil, I still quite like them just for the price and practicality.

Space is another issue altogether- No one has EVER said big sub boxes in the boot are practical and i will be the first to agree with that given whenever I have to load stuff around I have to use the passat instead of the polo as i have NO boot left at all! However even price is a matter of opinion!! There are plenty of SILLY expensive 6x9's out there as well. e.g CDT Audio did a pair which retailed at nearly £300!! I also did say earlier that as a cheap quick solution they will "do the job" this does NOT mean however that they will sound "good"

300 quid! I have to admit, I'm thinking of sets around 50 quid. I got a paid of MacAudios for 25 from Maplin, and they sound so much better than the 200 quid Vibes that Halfrauds sell. If you had 300 quid to spend, I would probably get the amp and sub combo - but who in their right mind would spend 300 on 6x9s!

Comps arent designed to do "bass"- I never said they would and never will because they arent!. That is exactly what a subwoofer is for! A decent set of components will still give a solid response at 80htz ad above though which is precisely where mid-bass region start (up to around 400htz or so- beyond that is midrange to 3Khtz)

Which draws my attention to the fact that everyone says to buy Comps (which you should have anyway) rather than 6x9s. But its no good having really good front speakers and nothing in the rear, because you need your boot and some muppet told you to spend the money on better front speakers than 6x9s. Comps. are only good when in conjunction with other equipment to produce the lower down sound, be it either 6x9s or a sub, but we're talking space constraints here.

Your arguement about size and OEM locations however is COMPLETELY wrong. Nearly ALL manufacturers produce mids/coaxs in the standard sizes of: 6.5" and 5 1/4". Why? because these are pretty much uniform sizes for OEM locations for near enough all manufacturers. E.G

Sorry, I was talking mounting depth, I should have made myself clearer. And in most VWs, the speaker dash mounts are about 3" - no 3" speakers could cover any kind of frequency range, period. A lot of the good Comps. really dont fit in stock location because of the shear size of the magnet. Spacers kinda work, but the original grills won't quite fit any longer. Which is when people look into fibreglass builds (and not many folk know how to tune their enclosure properly - let alone work with fibreglass anyway) or door pods - which requires additional fitting

Yes I have- my car! (bad arguement I know- I have 3£K worth of kit and over £400 worth of sound deadening! )

Seriously though, Road noise will be MORE of an issue with rear speakers and fronts, rather than a sub and comps up front. Its easier to combat road noise with proper bass extension rather than the mid-bass of a 6x9 which is directional and wont be heard fully up front anyway. (although the best way is obviously sound deadening- and even this can be done CHEAP with flashing tape from flippin B&Q- only costs £10 a roll and two rolls will cover a hatchback boot easily)

Are you telling me ambient sound is easier combatted with fewer speakers in fewer locations, not a chance. Road noise is far easier killed with speakers positioned all round to fill the car with sound. Obv. you don't like multiple speakers (which I understand) but 2 speakers and a sub will not combat background noise as well as mutiple speakers can.

I know exactly what clipping is thanks! You are also MORE likely to clip speakers off a head unit than an amplifier- why? because even a budget amplifier at £100 will still kick out at least 2 or 3 times the power of ANY head unit (there isnt a single head unit on the UK market that will do more than 4 x 22 watts RMS) I'm sure you know as well as I do that clipping occurs at the point where the amplifier has not enough power to send a clean sine wave- hence more power (which obviously requires an off board amp and not a head unit amp) is the only real solution to clipping - or just turn the flippin volume down- but the 6x9 kids dont tend to want to do that!

I was only defining clipping for those reading this thread - and I should hope you know what it is! I know a HU will clip over an amp, thats what I was saying. Most folk here will not bother rigging up a multichannel amp and cabling, which is why I'm saying they are likely to drive their equipment into distortion. People simply dont realise when a speaker is distorting through the increased volume (and LOUD on and bass settings at +10). Which is why multiple speakers allow an even load and encourage users to use a lower volume because of the increased culmulative volume.

Ahhhh the good old Binaureal Studio Recording argument.

I'm not saying they record music like this! I was trying to say that we can percieve audio from all locations quite easily, after all, thats why we're still alive 2000yrs because that tiger creeping up from behind was spotted. You were commenting on our lack of efficiency on pinpointing audio coming from locations in the vertical plane, and from behind us.

As I said before, multichannel formats within movie mastering ARE common.

Did you read how I said it was connected. Yes it was formatted in 5 channel, but only connected to my stereo through a stereo format. My laptop doesnt have a 5.1 channel decoder, it is a simple 2 channel output, the FM modulator also only takes in a stereo input, and broadcasts the same. But it clearly shows, a stereo input can still have differing sound from different channels, be it left and right or front and rear. The rear channels in the car CAN reproduce a different sound to the fronts simultaneously, even if it is an ordinary, non fancy, non dolby stereo.

Either way we both know the above isnt the way to get the best sounding result so will have to agree to disagree here.

I have to still admit, I like my 6x9s and I like the sound of them. At home my dad has pair of Missions @ 300 each and a pretty decent Teac stack. So out of curiosity, I connected my 6x9s to the amp for comparison and they didn't sound that much worse, at all. Which is why I have always, and will always say, that the sampler, audio processor and amp are the MOST important parts of a system because it can make even the cheapest speakers sound as good as its super expensive rivals. And the unit which ties all the sampling and processing together is the HU. You say that a cheap HU will suffice, but if it can't produce a decent quality signal for amplication, it will sound bad, really bad.

So instead of advising people not to buy 6x9s, you should be discouraging people from buying cheap, crap head units - as it will set you back 150 quid for the Alpine crap you bought, then another 250 quid for something half decent. Out of curiosity, I tried about 10 HUs recently, all brands, under 200 quid. It was difficult for me to benchmark them professionally, but I found that most big name stuff (that people are fooled into buying from crafty advertisments) like Alpine (which I really find to be the worst), Kenwood, Sony (and I really hate Sony), Blaupunkt, JVC etc. went into clipping at 60% volume, easily. Drove the speakers into distortion, if the eq settings were increased, at a moderate volume. Overall, really poor. So its no good having good speakers if you dont advise people to get the proper equipment at the outlay.

I also have to add, when you commented on a sub having enough power to displace all the air in the boot. You're usually talking about a 12/15" cone with a max excursion of about 1-2"s, that really isnt that much in terms of cubic feet, at all.

Rant over.

Edited 4 June, 200620 yr by pug306

hahahaha, physco's!!!

Save making a new topic as this one seems to be getting alot of attention.

My HU keeps skipping on perfectctly good CDs(no sctaches). When I took the CD out I noticed the HU is fooking hot, is this becuase A) its shit and a sony or b) becuase of the amps and everything I'm running.

My thought is basically, its over heating which is causing the laser to fook up all becuase its sony? Am usually way of the mark so I'll wait for a proper answer.

shit and sony

its probably the weather, heat seems to be getting everwhere these days!

I cant spell lol (bass)

My HU keeps skipping on perfectctly good CDs(no sctaches). When I took the CD out I noticed the HU is fooking hot, is this becuase A) its shit and a sony or b) becuase of the amps and everything I'm running.

My thought is basically, its over heating which is causing the laser to fook up all becuase its sony? Am usually way of the mark so I'll wait for a proper answer.

Sony stuff isn't that bad, its just overpriced. I actually had the laser on my Sony hifi mess up too. I ended up stripping it right down and cleaning the laser with a Q-tip and some Isopropyl alcohol, and it worked fine afterwards. I don't really reccomend you stripping down the HU if you've never done it before, so try a laser cleaning CD - from my experience they are a bit poor, but it might do the job for you.

You'll find that HU's run really hot, and its no suprise, its doing a lot of jobs in a small space, with no active cooling - usually only a small heatsink on the back. Its hardly the most ideal situation. Give it a blast inside with some compressed air (PC World/Maplin sell it for £2) and it might clear out a litte dust, could resolve the heat and laser issue.

Ps. Mods, can you move his question and this answer to a new thread

Cheers for that. I think I have the ideal tool for taking it apart in my garage. My dad just bought a new sledge hammer!

i would like to have the time to read all this , but i have not ..

6x9 good for the purpose intended

In a good system i would say no

But if a customer comes into me with £150 to spend

to up grade his o/e system and he want the best value for money

a accoustic shelf and a pair of 6x9 win every time

he/she will get more voulme and bass than the o/e set up

As usual it not a black / white argument their is a lot of grey in it !

Hmm agree with the above ^^^ concerning the amount of writing that's been written in the replies on this page!

Not going to read all that!

I've actually been given a free pair of black infinity 6X9s 500W, I think 2 way. Not keen on them but anything will sound better than stock speakers.

Hardest bit is going to be wiring them, as my rear speakers are in the rear doors and between the parcel shelf and the rear speakers (to wire the 6X9s up to) there are rear seats.

Who's wired a set of 6X9s up in a parcel shelf to rear door speaker connections, because looking at it, it's going to be bloomin hard to do a good job with no wires showing???

for free you cant complain, the main idea of this topic is to suggest paying for them is stupid and why its stuid. :)

edit: if you lived a bit closer i would have fitted them for you for the price of speaker wire and a beer.. like a tenner tops...

Edited 5 June, 200620 yr by Foxie