That's not entirely fair.

The Polo one bends the exhaust cam,too. I'm sure VW could've given it more than 125bhp if they wanted to,but they limit their engines quite heavily - that's the same power as the '97 Ibiza GTi 1.8 16v and we know the KR is capable of far more.

And back in '89 Honda were not so orientated to emissions as VW were ten years ago.

Which goes back to the "average" manufacturer argument. VW probably didn't give the Polo more than 125bhp because the average owner didn't want/need anymore than that.

Average isn't a bad thing. Most people don't need a car to be the fastest in class, or the best handling, they just need to get to work reliably and safely, which is what VW's are good at. Other manufacturers don't have the balance that VW have. Renault build fast cars but they're not reliable, Vauxhall build fast reliable cars but they don't go round corners etc etc.

Matt

It is a GTI though it's not meant to be average! The mk1 golf GTI wasn't average at the time was it. The polo Gti is meant to be the 'sporty' version and it's just not! Un-inspiringly slow (unless the engine is transferred to a mk1/2/3 of course ). The gearboxes are also made of cheese, so don't know how you could say reliable.

I would agree with what you're saying about renault and vauxhall, but honda make a great all round package; reliable, fast and fun! Which is one of the reasons why they retain their value so well.

Anyone hating on type-r hondas either has the VW blinkers on or has never driven one.

Mikey, what do you mean by bending the exhaust cam?

^I agree, I'm not a massive fan of honda's but you have to admire there engines

Just thought I would post this haha wait until 1.50 its pretty joke.

when he races the firebird he's not even going quickly he just lights up the tyres in 1st, 2nd and 3rd and it doesn't look like the firebird was racing

I think VW owners have Honda jealousy. Hondas are better at everything.

haha, thats just asking for trouble

RX7... My Jap dream

Pure Jap filth.

Brad Hackers car is sooo sick!

and his brothers(?)

hahaha at the guy bashing vw's and liking honda's, and saying honda's are better in every way, i'd like to see some real car stats comparing the two manufacturers and vw own lamborghini and bugatti and it was vw who made the veyron not just owned the company who built it they actually wanted to make the fastest most comfortable and usable car possible, can honda beat that?

p.s. i <3 rwd nissans especially the s14a :)

the best one i could find on google images

The polo GTI doesn't really strictly use a true VVT setup as it only acts upon the inlet cam

What i meant was that this claim of the Polo only having VICT is untrue - both the inlet and exhaust cams are varied (bent,active,whatever) over the rev range,as the exhaust cam is driven by the inlet cam via a seperate belt,both primarily driven by the VVT unit. So the inlet and exhaust cams vary,the exhaust is not static to the crank its driven by the varying inlet pulley.

As for accomplishment,i think people are still missing the point. Two things spring to mind.

One being that the Polo GTi was not to overshadow the Golf GTi in any way - and that was dire no matter which version you chose.

Secondly,its not about max power. Strict emissions meant it was always gonna fall way short,but VW didn't have the same point to prove as Honda did either. Plus pulling the weighty 6n2 meant for a different nature anyway,not that they had any choice but to use the long stroke engine instead of engineer the tall block in there. But Honda's old motor gets its figure by revving to rpm's VW simply do not explore.

I dont see what relevance there is comparing an 80s promotional Honda to a post-millenia Polo. The Polo clearly appealed to a different audience than the screaming Honda of their eras.

And engine apart,they're very different motors everywhere else too. The low and long Hondas sold aside got complicated suspension all round (double wishbones at the front,when a VW customer was lucky enough to get one), they're just different cars.

No blinkers here,btw. Id have a Honda Civic the same age as my Polo - if only they hadn't all long rotted away.. Flat-backs were all gone ten years ago. And their newer stuff doesn't impress me much more,i loathe 90s Rovers and they're little different with Honda badges.

The polo GTI doesn't really strictly use a true VVT setup as it only acts upon the inlet cam

What i meant was that this claim of the Polo only having VICT is untrue - both the inlet and exhaust cams are varied (bent,active,whatever) over the rev range,as the exhaust cam is driven by the inlet cam via a seperate belt,both primarily driven by the VVT unit. So the inlet and exhaust cams vary,the exhaust is not static to the crank its driven by the varying inlet pulley.

They may be driven by the same chain/belt/whatever but the exhaust cam timing does not change at all, that's the whole point of the system. I know it's not exactly the same as the Toyota system shown in the video, but the general operation is the same, the inlet cam timing is independent of the actual pulleys, meaning the exhaust timing is unaffected.

I wasn't really trying to compare the two cars - I was really trying to make a point to the lad saying 'hondas are really shit and vtec is pointless' that, on comparison, power per litre N/A, no other manufacturer touches Honda's engines.

VW+ SWFC - I'm not saying that Hondas are better in every way; I was stating that they make a great hot hatch. Bugatti and Lamborghini are a different kettle of fish. I for one do not think that bolting 4 turbochargers to a W16 engine is really groundbreaking though! Bugatti did something similar 20 years ago.

let me add another opinion to the court - felt spec

I've taken a bit of a liking to this style/look/whatever recently, sort of thing i liked as a young en.

i know they look reasonably pap, but thats why i like it.

Edited 12 April, 201115 yr by Polio

Thats not a style. Thats a group of lads who cant set torsion bars on there drive properly. :p p.s hondas vtec has never broken. Every other manufactures system has failed on more than one occasion. I would prefer a b16 ek to a g40 anyday though. Purely on strength of engine not on how tacky the interior is. And also the suspension setup on a ek jordan is the spitting image of the setup on a aerial atom

I'm sorry but anyone who says they're a VW fan and don't like 'Jap crap' is being a bit narrow minded.

Japan's made some shite, but so have VW.

Japan have made some of the best cars about, VW have made a few really iconic ones too (not really fair compairing a country to a single carmaker).

Honda used to make interesting cars for enthusiasts however no longer especially in the UK, the type R is discontinued here, Integra, Prelude, NSX, S2000, all gone. Same for many of the Jap companies, Toyota cancelled the Supra, Celica, MR2, Soarer etc, Mitsubishi has recently cancelled the Evo to concentrate on electric vehicles, Nissan has only the 370Z and GTR left.

I'm no fanboy as I love most of the cars in this thread and don't even rate VW that highly, however at least they still build some fun cars under the R Division, and obviously within the VAG group. Japanese vehicles have high levels of innovation and build quality but honestly I just don't find them exciting anymore, quite the opposite and it saddens me.

Fuck

I drive a Prelude and a Polo of the same year. Both are probably around the same value but I know which I'd rather drive every day I could. Obviously though, the two aren't meant to compare in the first place.

VW+ SWFC - I'm not saying that Hondas are better in every way; I was stating that they make a great hot hatch. Bugatti and Lamborghini are a different kettle of fish. I for one do not think that bolting 4 turbochargers to a W16 engine is really groundbreaking though! Bugatti did something similar 20 years ago.

nah it wasn't you it was this stealthstlyez guy earlier, and a quad turbo'd w16 is better than any honda engine ever made tbh, a 4 pot with vtec isn't really that special

The "special" thing about the VTEC engines is the bhp chucked out of an N/A engine. But then the high revving is hella fun also.

Honda used to make interesting cars for enthusiasts however no longer especially in the UK, the type R is discontinued here, Integra, Prelude, NSX, S2000, all gone. Same for many of the Jap companies, Toyota cancelled the Supra, Celica, MR2, Soarer etc, Mitsubishi has recently cancelled the Evo to concentrate on electric vehicles, Nissan has only the 370Z and GTR left.

What's really annoying is Honda still make a right hand drive Type R in Swindon, but it's shipped out to Australasia and Japan and not available in Europe. There's a delicious irony to the car being canned here because it doesn't meet European emissions regs, yet they're quite happy to build it in the UK and ship cars half way around the world.

If you bought an imported JDM spec Civic Type R, you'd be getting a car built in Swindon, shipped to Japan and then shipped back to the UK. Lunacy!

What's doubly sad is our Civic Type R wasn't the most powerful version, and in Japan it's replaced their four door car. I doubt it's the last we'll see of the Type R badge here, but it's possible they'll ditch the VTEC thing if it comes back. That sort of defeats the object, I think.

Don't forget Toyota and Subaru are developing the FT-86 and Boxer Sports Car (working title) due next year. Rear drive, two litre N/A boxer lump, that should be interesting.

And the GT-R is a car to get very excited about, believe me.

Mitsubishi haven't said they're getting shot of the Evo either. There are a lot of sensationalist stories online, but the official line is that they're evolving the concept because it doesn't fit their eco-friendly product line up. I've no idea what that means in reality, but I'm guessing they're finding ways to enhance the performance without adding power? As in maybe it'll get lighter.

Unfortunately, Japanese performance cars were popular because they were cheap. Fuel is extortionate here now, and the road tax on cars with high emissions is similarly ridiculous. You're looking at over £400 a year to tax one, and you pay double that to take it off the forecourt in its first year.

VW may have given us the R range but it's still not up to the performance offered by Japan. The Golf R is underpowered for its four wheel drive system, the Passat R36 is epic but it's a big heavy car with a large engine, and the Scirocco is a headcase that's a lot of fun but can't match the Focus RS.

The "special" thing about the VTEC engines is the bhp chucked out of an N/A engine. But then the high revving is hella fun also.

i'm pretty sure if i had to chose an na for big power it would need many cylinders and many cc's, a v8 maybe, or even the 13b from a mazda if it had to be jap and they rev like there's no tomorrow, tbh honda have never really pushed the boat in engine designing, fair do's vtec is all well and good but meh its a little samey

mmmmmmmmmm s15

The Veyron engines aren't that special. 1001bhp from 16 cylinders and 4 turbos is pretty poo. You can make that sort of power with a V8 and single/twin turbos. They're not that special speed wise either. The Callaway Sledgehammer Corvette managed 254mph in the late 80s, with a <900bhp twin turbo 5.7 V8. It was also only $400,000, against the $2.6m for a Veyron.

Although not road registered (though it could be) the Kugel family has gone 300+mph in a stock bodied Pontiac Firebird, again with a twin turbo V8. No fancy aero work or complicated engines.

done properly

No offence but i hate this phrase.

I agree about the GTR alex, i mean wow, it felt like it was in a different leauge compared the gallardo i drove, and its something that can be comfortable driven dialy!

done properly

No offence but i hate this phrase.

Unfortunately its necessary in many cases. Though i realise 'properly' is a matter of opinion in the case of anything customized.

The Veyron engines aren't that special. 1001bhp from 16 cylinders and 4 turbos is pretty poo. You can make that sort of power with a V8 and single/twin turbos. They're not that special speed wise either. The Callaway Sledgehammer Corvette managed 254mph in the late 80s, with a <900bhp twin turbo 5.7 V8. It was also only $400,000, against the $2.6m for a Veyron.

Although not road registered (though it could be) the Kugel family has gone 300+mph in a stock bodied Pontiac Firebird, again with a twin turbo V8. No fancy aero work or complicated engines.

You're under some massive disillusion if you think 1000bhp+ (try 1200bhp from the Supersports) whilst still passing EU5 emissions laws isn't impressive. Along with all manner of endurance testing, that any of the salt rat motors wouldn't pass.

Also Volkswagen do make some 'quick' cars, being the owners of; Porsche, Bentley, Lambo, Bugatti etc etc

Only Honda I'd own- NSX- that is a decent Jap car.

^x2 lots of power is easy to get but lots of power, reliability, being comfortable and being road legal isn't easy to get all at once

o yeah what about the veyron supersport?

anyway there are lots of good jap cars, but once you start bashing vw's and saying honda's ftw people will respond

a tasty little ae86