Hey people.

Currently wanting to build another engine, and just weighing up options at the minute.

Now we all know that a PY engine with a turbo attached or even the charger is probably best bang for buck, pretty easy to do, good gains to be had, loads of info and will be a strong reliable conversion. However, theres something in the back of my head that just isnt interested in doing this at all, I dont know why, but yeah, so looking into other things.

So looking into build a 1.6 16v ''hybrid'' but in all honesty, I'm scared of building a 16v.

This is purely for the fact I feel as though it may be a bit bland until it comes to life.

My AEE is pretty decent down low, admittedly not brilliant due to cam/carb size, howver its a lot less bland than a 1.4 AFH.

The 16v's seem to make good PEAK power, but if you actually look in more detail, the torque curve between that and an 8v differs massively, my current engine makes peak torque (~120lbft or something) at around 2.2k, but it pretty much holds this flat up to around 5.5k, whereas a 16v may make say 125lbft, around 4k, but before and after that is less, its just a peak value, think this loss low down makes them a bit bland.

Drove Guys as a 1.6, which was decent and pulled well, even from nothing, I think it partly felt lively due to having poor traction etc, but it was good, but just the fact 1.4's on carbs make more power and torque than mine, but actually driving it, like in reality, not numbers on a piece of paper, its not as exciting (for me anyway). Same story with KRs, people say they're decent, a friend happens to have a particularly strong Mk2 GTI with a KR, where its happy to pull to the limiter in fifth, its just bland, not really in your face, I want the throttle to be something you need to consider the consequences of just pinning to the floor instead of waiting for it to winds itself up and find some go at around 5k.

Now obviously a G40 gives this low down Whoaa because of the charger, but IF I build a 16v, I dont want it to be shit, id be annoyed making the effort and it not being too good.

If I build one, it will be cammed, but I'm not sure how aggressively, dont want to run standard cams, which is probably best for low down go, but I dont also want to be screaming it everywhere to gain 5hp peak at 8500rpm.

Anyway, my current thoughts on an engine would be:

ARC/AVY block, with head bolts opened out to M11 (mainly to retain oil squirters and a 1.6 engine number)

Balanced crank/pistons/rods with ARP rod bolts (just for reassurance more than anything)

Lightened Mk3 fly (already have)

AFH head, properly flowed, with 3 angle valve seats, new guides etc

Possible slightly higher CR (not 12.2:1 high, maybe 11.5 or something)

4-2-1 + exhaust (can you get a decent 4-2-1 for reasonable money?)

Either ITBs with EFI (obviously) OR Bike carbs with mappable ignition (I think carbs will be decent enough for what I want, isnt a daily now)

Was also looking at filling in the 'clover' part of the head where the standard injector sprays, to end up with just oval ports.

And of course, camshaft choice.

Bartek offer a few differnt Schrick setups, a full rally kit including valves/springs/lifters etc, but thats 296 duration, and around 1800euros.

I dont want to be revving over 8k, so I doubt ill be needing solid lifters.

I know inlet length and other factors determine how the power is delivered and where in the range, but basically, with that 'spec' engine (pretty standard really, just head work) what cams would people recommend to me from the following, or other options you may feel will work of course.

256/256:

Intake 256°, cam lift 9,5, valve lift at TDC 0,6, for hydr. lifters

Exhaust 256°, cam lift 9,5, valve lift at TDC 0,7, for hydr. lifters

264/264:

Intake: 264°, cam lift 10,0, valve lift at TDC 1,1, for hydr. lifters

Exhaust: 264°, cam lift 10,0, valve lift at TDC 1,2, for hydr. lifters

280/280:

Intake: 280°, cam lift 10,4, valve lift at TDC 3,0, valve clearance 0,25

Exhaust: 280°, cam lift 10,4, valve lift at TDC 3,0, valve clearance 0,30

(Solid lifters?)

296/296:

Intake: 292°, cam lift 11,6, valve lift at TDC 4,2, valve clearance 0,25

Exhaust: 292°, cam lift 11,6, valve lift at TDC 4,2, valve clearance 0,30

(Solid lifters again I believe?)

Now I know I run a 272 currently in the 8v, but Id have thought due to the way a 16v is, for some drivability a slightly milder setup will be better, I was thinking a 264/264 myself, but I dont know how top end would be? Id imagine fine really?

Obviously making 170-180hp would be nice, but I dont want to ruin how the car drives for the sake of some internet friends because I made a decent peak figure, would rather some area under the torque curve.

Also, if I dont intend on revving over 8k, id imagine just new standard springs and lifters would be fine? (Unless cams require such)

It would be nice to make decent power, I seem to remember a cammed Lupo engine on ITBs with ~180hp, not sure what else was done though?

Just unsure, dont want to make all this effort (well ill enjoy putting it together and setting it up) but money too, for something ill jump in and say ah this is a bit better, but be bored in a few weeks again. Obviously boost is the way to go, but id like to build one of these which is a little more than just an AFH head on an AVY and that doesnt smoke :p

Any input appreciated, but this thread isnt really to advise me on other solutions (other engines) its about deciding a decent setup for an AVY/AFH combination. Not really swung by ITBs at the moment, I mean they could happen in the future anyway, id just be happier getting it up and running on carbs as they're pretty easy to setup, especially on a freshly built engine.

So yeah, reccommendations on cams and a decent 4-2-1 would be nice, also what power people think is realistic from said setup would be nice. I know Briscoe made 156hp and 153hp on different rollers, with cams etc, id hope for more than this, maybe the refinement of mappapable ignition would help, but also dont want to be screaming it for the sake of some numbers :)

Cheers!

Sounds like you have been doing a lot of digging into this conversion and to be honest it's probably the best thing to do. As you know I have built on of these engines that I had on carbs for a while, however this was completely standard otherwise. I also understand what you are saying about the rev range And torque it always felt on mine that I was squeezing the power out just waiting for revs to gather before it pulled nicely.

I started looking at cam but it looks very expensive around £500 iirc, piper do regrinds for £200 at 240/240

http://www.pipercams.co.uk/pipercams/www/p...id=POL16VBP270H

I think that's what I'm gonna do when I build a head for boost. Tbh I don't want to spend stupid money and get carried away buying expensive parts for not much more of a gain. Especially if I'm going to fork out for forged rods and pistons.

I believe that lupo made 165bhp on itbs and shrick cams, the car was in pvw and I believe the guy was called Mitch.

You obviously enjoy the carb tuning side of things and this is probably the bet bet for breaking in a freshly built engine and the mappable ignition mapping will break you in nicely for tuning a full ECU map when it comes round to ECU.

I can't give much advise it speak from experience on cams but it is something that I also would like to learn a bit about and what the figures actually mean and what differences they make to engine performance.

Also I'd get a full custom exhaust system including the manifold because you would get something much better than a raceland manifold or other eBay specials.

Edited 17 January, 201313 yr by forbes-1234

Glad you know what the fuck my essay of a post is going on about.

I don't mind spending the £500 odd on cams to be honest, I'd prefer that to reprints really, wouldn't say I'm going hard at building an amazing engine, bit of a half hearted attempt really but just be good to try!

Yeah I noticed you can get some old VW Motorsport 4-2-1's but I guess that's a rare moment when they come up, right place right time kinda thing!

EFI is obviously better but I'd like to try carbs first, then if I go EFI it's two separate projects rather then one all at once, I like tinkering, would be bored if was all done together.

Part number for vw rally exhaust manifold for afh/avy head pattern

p3k 253 031

I also understand what you are saying about the rev range And torque it always felt on mine that I was squeezing the power out just waiting for revs to gather before it pulled nicely.

Could this not be more to do with the carbs than the engine? mine was on EFI and pulled nice and hard from the bottom of the rev range

It probably was to do with the carb set up to be honest.

Mine will be finished soon on the EFI so I will find out then what it is like to drive then.

Also the wheels I had on at the time couldn't put down the power and just span up.

So just my general set up really.

Its definitely to do with the carbs rather than engine, my standard afh has different pull lower down to tobys which is on carbs..

Yeah I'd kinda agree to be honest on that front, I think the way you use the throttle with carbs makes a difference too. Ideally the slide springs should be changed or altered to suit.

Jez's 1.6 AFH hybrid in a 6N on stock injection pulled well from low down too. It gets risky comparing dyno plots unless you know that all the cars in question are properly setup/mapped or whatever.

That's what I mean, surely if I stay sensible with cams and the fuelling and ignition is good (ie not a fixed curve dizzy off a 1.3 8v) it should be pretty decent?

It's not going to give you a hard-on unless you boost it or stick gas on it though. Once you're hitting 100bhp/litre naturally aspirated you run out of ways to cheat physics to get more area under the torque curve.

I know dude, it's still a polo at the end of the day. But be nice to build one with a bit of thought first and see what happens. Rather than making 200hp peak with gash drivability

If I boosted something I'd have to do it properly, but I kind of need to prioritise and think of shit like buying a house.

Your what, 20 years old? no kids and riding high through one of the worst financial slumps of all time, why the fuck would you want to buy a house?

Fuck that, enjoy having money while you still have it, if anything save it for a rainy day. Buying a house now would be pretty retarded, things are gonna crash a lot harder than this and its best to not be tied into shit like a mortgage if you don't need to be when the shit hits the fan

Don't want a house at the minute, want to save a large chunk towards one lol.

Anyway CAMS ? I'll just guess fuck it

i would just be weary of the power bands.

if you're on stock rods you cant really regularly go over 7500rpm (i've bent one)

the problem with the P3K exhaust is its got mega long primaries - its designed to work on a full S1600 engine which is mega spec (single throttle body, 215bhp....)

If you can't handle 9000rpm and have the gear ratios to keep it in the power band the whole time its a pain to drive.

Safe.

264/264, worked head & cheap 4-2-1

Be an improvement over AEE surely ?!

Briscoe!! Sell me engine

make sure you get some verniers.

A decent rolling road session with someone who knows what you want will help - don't have it setup for balls out power.

We dialled the timing back a bit on mine, lost 8bhp or something but gained like 20nm lower down, made it a lot easier to drive and pull through the gears/out of corners, and generally more tractable

Yeah good idea, iv heard of a lot of gains from altering cam timing on 16v's specifically.

What's your spec/power/torque? Got a graph?

Watching this with a close eye, could be a good build.

I've got a 1.6 crank sitting in the garage, so I might end up following you close behind.

The carb's are not suited for the engine, I noticed this the other day - came off the motorway en route to the misses house, gave it some big licks up the short dual carriageway, roundabout and it started to run on 3 cylinders! :( Oh dear, shit myself.

Coaxed it to hers (the AFR was off the gauge lean) and carb number 2 had jammed it's slide hard against the roof of the top. Needed a fair tug to get it back off, too. Obviously the vacuum lifts the slide up, but this was only what at 6k.

I think the springs are too light for the AFH's and quite probably the AEE's, too.

Very noticeable if you give it what and hold, although the AFR is good, it's just throaty and bloated. Back off the throttle and it lifts again.

Once you're in the power band it's fine.

I just think that the slides are lifting too early - or not in a good position under low rev what conditions.

Carbs are fineeeeeee

I only ran standard engines on the 600s.

ABD - tractable, reasonably progressive, liked to be worked. Weakly swift. Sounded lovely. Best used nailing it around town on on B-roads.

AEE - comedy torque meant traction issues could be used for a party trick, good midrange but weaked out as the revs went up. Nothing to gain up top, Turbo diesel antics really, - but sounded fantastically brutal. Best used as a musical instrument to turn heads on the high street.

1.6 AFH - tractable, then good midrange but not as punchy as the AEE, but then it just kept climbing consistently to big ground coverage speeds instead of flatting out. Went very well, but without the party trickery or soundtrack. By far the fastest yet relatively 'grown-up'. A bit too much so, really..

I should've tried a 1.4 cam in the AEE to push the torque curve a little up the rev range, get it somewhere between the ABD and AEE theoretically.

I now have the option of various factory cams in my twin belt engine. First up the 1.4 100bhp cams, but if they don't give me enough grunt or noise then i have a pair of Golf4 1.4 75bhp cams to see if less is more. And i'll keep my eye out for a cheap pair of Golf4 1.6 112bhp cams to see if they'll be best.

I agree with you Mikey, I do t think my AEE is as punchy as yours will have been, mine doesn't run out top end too much but I'd imagine that's due to camshaft choice.

Guys 1.6 16v as he said was very responsive, but i don't know what it was like on a day to day basis, the fact it wheelspun easily often makes you think its really responsive when it may just be bad traction.

Surely a properly setup one, eg not just drilled out main jets with some decent ignition and a bit of time spent on the rollers could help gain some bottom end?

I think my AEE doesn't particularly make good power or torque, because I tuned it to "feel" if you like, so it's more about how it drives in reality on an actual road not messing with cam timing to get peak power but poor performance through the range, as said above about vernier pulleys.

Numbers are nice, but I'd rather something that works

Nah wasn't just lack of traction nick, it was responsive even when it wasn't spinning its idiot off. Was very easy to drive on a daily basis too, just stick it in 3rd and leave it there while ploding through slow moving traffic, just pulled along nicely.

If your so unsure of this engine then maybe best stick with the 8v?

Edited 18 January, 201313 yr by Mclovin

I'm just skeptical mate, that's why I particularly value your input, and I also agree about the injection being more responsive.

Think before I do you should have a drive of my mk3 and see what you think?

Id imagine a 1.6 16v will be a notable improvement, guess I'm just trying to make sure I don't go mad cams hunting numbers and being disappointed.

Yours was good to drive though guy, I'm with you there, part of the reason I wanna build one

I know what your saying Nick, just all your gonna get is peoples opinions on their setup and that's not to say that if you drove that car you would have the same opinion of it. I guess without diving in and doing it your not gonna know for sure either way

Personally I think you would do well with one, you've had very good results where it matters from the 8v lump. Maybe it would be worth building one up in 'standard' spec and run that first so you can make up your own mind where it needs improving? At least that way if its not what you were hoping for you could cut your loses without being in too deep and get most of, if not all of your money back by selling the valver on. It's not like its a difficult job to change stuff like the cams with the engine in once you get a better idea of which cams ect you might need

I just think you would be better off starting from scratch and building it up to how you think it should drive, less chance of being disappointed that way?