Jump to content
joe005

9N3 Electric Windows Not Working

Recommended Posts

joe005

The relay is fixed to the control board and needs to be desoldered (see photos)

Control_Front1_zps2rb1iezv.jpg

Control_Front2_zpskmdrfvp8.jpg

Control_Rear_zpsymy0e1y5.jpg

I tested the relay with an external power supply and it was switching fine, so I just purchased a 100uF 105 C 63V capacitor from Maplin for 49p

(Note: I replaced the 35V with a 63V cap, this is perfectly fine as the important spec. is the capacitance. You can replace with equal or higher values for temperature and voltage, just never go lower than the original capacitor value)

After replacing the capacitor highlighted in the first photo everything worked perfectly for about 20 minutes, then stopped.

I'm suspecting the relay may have an intermittent fault, so my next move is to replace the relay. I've seen these on eBay and other electronics shops, but haven't bought this yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
vwfan3

Hi

I am most grateful to you.

Good luck with the relay.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hobby2016

Hi

I have been following this thread with great interest because I have a similar problem with the windows on my 2005 Polo (I also have problems with the central locking in that it will only operate from the passenger door)

Taking out and reseating the window fuses had a similar effect to that described above ie the passenger window would start working (from the passenger door switch only) for a while but then stop after some sequence involving the central locking which I haven't defined yet ! However, at some point during the fuse experiments the central locking started working correctly (from the drivers door) but not for long !

I will be very interested to know if the relay/capacitor change solved your problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
joe005

There seem to be a lot of people affected by this and I'd really like to find a solution to repairing the control module, rather than having to fork out for a complete new motor assembly, when the motor is perfectly serviceable. I can't get the new relay until after Easter, but will keep you posted as to progress.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
joe005

Today I replaced the relay, so far I’ve replaced the capacitor and relay.



Reassembled the control board and put it all back together in the door, all worked perfectly initially. After a few minutes though, the same thing happened and windows stopped working. Disconnecting the larger of the two plugs on the motor then immediately reconnecting it gets everything working again for a while, same thing happens if you remove the fuses for the two front windows for a few seconds.



Not wanting to give up, I removed the control board and stripped down the motor, cleaned the commutator, greased all shafts and contact points, checked the brushes and all looked good and moved freely. Reassembled (I can do this with my eyes closed now :) and same issue… all worked for a while, then dead.



At this point I’m not sure if it’s something which can be programmed in VCDS/VAC-COM, or just a faulty control board which needs to be replaced; I suspect the board.



I’m going to have to bite the bullet and swap out the control board and motor assembly. Will report back when I get my hands on a replacement.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hobby2016

Thanks for the feedback even if you were unsuccessful. Ten out of Ten for tenacity though - you sound like me !

I've ordered a relay and capacitor myself and will try fitting them upon arrival.

You give a link to the VWT4 forum which shows somebody having success after fitting them, do you have any other links, maybe to someone who has a theory as to why a failure of these parts would cause the faults ?

At the moment my window is closed, can you tell me if it will drop when I remove the window motor / control board assembly ? Presumably I could duct-tape it up or something if necessary. I dont want it to be stuck open !

By the way, because my initial problem was with the central locking I concentrated on the Convenience Control Unit - mainly trying to find and remove it so far ! I bought a new CCU mounting bracket and have some photos of the back of it (which shows how you remove the thing) if they'd would be useful to anyone. Being a newbie to the forum, I' m not sure of the best way to attach them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
joe005

I've been on every forum and searched extensively to see if anybody had any more success or alternative theory, but came up blank other than the VWT4 article.

I've been speaking directly with VW over the last couple of days and found something interesting, which suggests a known fault. I asked if there was a modified part available and was told there wasn't and the part number is the same (I was trying to figure out if I could use a 6Q1959801 instead of a 6Y1959801 and the answer is no); but I found that there is a VW code at the end of the part number, which isn't printed on the part. My motor is 6Y1959801 VW2 and the latest part is 6Y1959801 VW4. I asked the difference was told it has a modification to the controller board and software, so basically they've fixed a known issue and secretly released a modified part, but to the customer you will only see the first part of the part code. This makes a lot of sense, as I can't figure why it works perfectly when I pull and replace the fuses, then it just stops.... it's obviously a buggy controller.

In answer to your question, the window does not go down when you remove the motor, as the regulator holds it all in place. If you want to roll down the window, you have to manually turn the spindle which the motor connects to; no need for duct tape :) I've got to the point where I can have the door apart and motor out in about 5 minutes, but probably took me a half hour the first time, it's pretty straightforward.

Tools you'll need are as follows:-

Door Handle (under window control switch) T30

3 Screws at bottom of door card T20

3 screws retaining motor T25

Little screwdriver to press clips on electrical connectors

Be careful when taking off the door card, you need to unclip the following whilst hodling the panel, so the connectors don't get strained or damaged:-

Cable connected to red flashing LED near door lock button

2 connectors on electric mirror and open/lock door modules

2 connectors on electric window motor

Unclip cable to door lock (just hooks in place)

If you want to attach photos, use a Photobucket account and paste the link into the thread. I'd be interested in seeing the pics of the Comfort Control Module.

Edited by joe005

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hobby2016

IMG_2322 - Copy - with notes.pdf

Thanks for the comprehensive notes.

I've got the door card off now but stuck because none of the 9N1 wiring diagrams I've found (including Haynes manual) stack up with what I've actually got - want to check out wiring before doing anything else.

One link which has pictures of the Convenience Control Unit (CCU) frame is http://www.clubpolo.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=204921&page=4 . I've hopefully attached a picture of the back of a new frame which shows how its attached.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
joe005

I have a wiring diagram for the 9N3, but it's too big to attach. If you PM me your email I'll send it to you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hobby2016

I have downloaded the 9N3 diagrams posted by nige8021 at the start of this topic. Are yours the same as these ? Nige8021 also pointed me to some 9N1 diagrams.

Unfortunately both sets of the diagrams I've got and my Haynes manual show 2 of the 4 wires from the drivers door window switch, going directly to the drivers door control unit. My wiring doesnt do that. I only have 3 instead of 4 wires (I've looked hard but there never has been a fourth !) And they dont go to the control unit at all but to the A-pillar connector. I'm not sure where they go after that, presumably either the CCU, the On-Board supply unit or possibly the passenger door ?

Its difficult to trace them - I'm not built for hanging under dashboards !

The crazy thing is that I dont see how the windows could have ever worked with only 3 wires but they have, for the eight years that we've had the car ! Its the Central Locking thats always been intermittent.

If your (or anyone elses) diagrams show MY arrangement I would appreciate a copy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
nige8021

I have downloaded the 9N3 diagrams posted by nige8021 at the start of this topic. Are yours the same as these ? Nige8021 also pointed me to some 9N1 diagrams.

Unfortunately both sets of the diagrams I've got and my Haynes manual show 2 of the 4 wires from the drivers door window switch, going directly to the drivers door control unit. My wiring doesnt do that. I only have 3 instead of 4 wires (I've looked hard but there never has been a fourth !) And they dont go to the control unit at all but to the A-pillar connector. I'm not sure where they go after that, presumably either the CCU, the On-Board supply unit or possibly the passenger door ?

Its difficult to trace them - I'm not built for hanging under dashboards !

The crazy thing is that I dont see how the windows could have ever worked with only 3 wires but they have, for the eight years that we've had the car ! Its the Central Locking thats always been intermittent.

If your (or anyone elses) diagrams show MY arrangement I would appreciate a copy.

I've just gone through all of the 9N1 & 9N3 diagrams in the dealers manual and none have the wires from the switches going to the A post disconnect they all go direct to the window control module/motor unit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
joe005

I've been through the diagrams I have and they show the same.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hobby2016

Gentlemen, I CONFESS.

My doubts about the 9N1 and 9N3 wiring diagrams, expressed in my posts of 7th and 9th April, are wrong. The diagrams are correct. I was looking at the wrong connector (cold, tired etc, etc).

My apologies for wasting your time.

Today I did a thorough check of the window switch wiring, checking continuity and strength of joints at connectors - all OK. I also cleaned the contacts of the motor unit connector (they werent particularly dirty).

The main +12v supply to the motor unit was present as was the 0v chassis connection.

* I measured the window switch inputs to the motor unit and they sit at 12v until grounded by operating the switches. This seems reasonable.

I thought I'd fixed it because both the windows and central locking worked perfectly - but only for a while. Still not sure what combination of locking and window operation kills it but am fairly certain now that my window and central locking problems are linked.

* I need to repeat this when the failure is present.

I think my next step will be examining the window unit circuit board (particularly looking for dry joints of course - tricky with surface mount components) and then to change the relay and capacitor.

It occurs to me that this poor board gets severly "shock tested" several times per journey.

Will keep you posted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
joe005

Best of luck, I soldered all the main joins on the board (don't have the kit to do the surface mount components without causing heat damage). I'm pretty certain at this stage that replacing the controller board (and unfortunately the motor too) will resolve my issues. I'm watching with great interest if you have any luck with repairing the controller board, as this is my first preference.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hobby2016

I'm still struggling with wiring diagrams ! It looks like although my car is a 9N1 (from the owners handbook), the door wiring actually stacks up with the 9N3 diagrams ie as regards wire colour and number of terminals on connectors etc.

I'm trying to work out the function of all the wires going to the Window Unit connectors mainly to see if there are any which are common to the Central Locking. I've sorted most of them out but there are a few left. On the diagrams, some of the wires end in boxes with numbers in. I assume these connect to a wire somewhere else which has the same box number. However I cant find the matching box for several of the wires in the door wiring diagrams eg boxes 25,5,54,50. Would anyone have additional schematics where these might be shown ?

Today I removed the Window Unit pcb and did a quick inspection. There were a few tiny solder balls on the back, stuck in the flux, which I pinged off, but the joints looked good (so far). Before doing any soldering I replaced the pcb in the motor assembly to see if things were working or not. Both the windows and central locking worked perfectly ! This is with me doing very little (apart from unplugging and replugging).

I've lashed the Window Unit to the door (with the drive sprocket facing into the car and the lid off the pcb) so that I can get access to the pcb components. My plan is try tapping / freezing the individual components to see if I can cause it to fail.

To be continued....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
nige8021

The numbers in boxes refer to the current track lines at the bottom of each diagram, so if it's 25 in the box look along the bottom of the diagrams until you find #25 then follow that up the diagram until you find the corresponding wire colour and the box # that corresponds to the track line in the first diagram, it's a bit confusing at first but you soon get the hang of it :)

As yours is a 2005 it's on the change date from the N1 to N3 do you have "Bug eye" headlights or normal looking? as that will define what you have :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hobby2016

Ah ha ! I see.

I've attached a photo of my headlights. From your description, I think this confirms that I have

an N1 ? Perhaps there was a period at the 2005 changeover where N1 chassis had N3 wiring ?

By the way although I didnt have time to work on the car today, I did drive it a fair bit (with my "lash up" in place) and the window motors and central locking worked perfectly. Thats a whole day with no problems ! I feel sure that there must be a duff joint somewhere on the window unit pcb.Headlights.pdf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
nige8021

Yep that's the 9N1 it would be unusual to have a cross over in the wiring though,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hobby2016

Attached a picture of the Window Unit "Lash Up". Note the use of an old cup-a-soup carton to stop the "assembly" rattling !

With it mounted like this, it is possible to run the drivers window motor (using the window switch) almost continually whilst tapping/rattling/freezer-spraying/swearing at, the control pcb, and its components, to get it (in this case) to fail. Needless to say it wouldnt fail. Both front window motors and the central locking worked perfectly.

Think I'll just have to leave it like this for a few days to see if it will fail on its own. Dont want to put everything back together unless I've found an actual fault. If I dont, I'll have to lash out on a new window unit, I suppose.

Lash Up Inside door - close up.pdf

Did anyone find that the relay on the control pcb had hand written numbers (in felt pen) on it, mine has ? Just wondered if this meant it had received some attention in the past.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
joe005

Mine had a blue ACT512 with some numbers written on in a green marker pen; the new one is black plastic.

To be honest the tests I did were not showing the relay to have failed, I only changed it in case it went intermittent under load, but the new one has made no difference (I guess I was clutching at straws).

I've had to bite the bullet and order a new motor assembly, which'll arrive this week. The one I have has VW2 after the part number and the latest model has VW4, so hopefully this update resolves the control board issues.

BTW, like the cup-a-soup mod ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hobby2016

Very best of luck with the new Window Unit.

Am I right in saying that your windows have never worked but your Central Locking has always been OK? If so, our faults may be different because my windows were fine up until a few months ago whereas the C/L has been intermittent for several years. I cant quite see mine being a software issue, but......

When you fit your new unit will you have to "recode" it to the car ? Is the only way to do this with VCDS ? I haven't got this, so I guess, if I bought a new unit, I would have to take it to a garage anyway ?

Another question about the 9N3 wiring diagrams I'm afraid. On page 5, at 50 and 51, it looks like at T21/11 the wiring to boxes 101 and 102 is connected together. This seems a bit of an odd arrangement and I actually measure 12v at 102, and 0v at 101 which suggests they arent connected. If there was a diagram error it would have to be present on page 6 too (the passenger side) because it shows the same arrangement. This seems unlikely. Assuming the diagram is correct, maybe the join at T21/11 has failed. I assume that this join would be obtained by crimping two wires into one terminal but I dont remember seeing a double wire connection at any of the A-pillar connectors. Um.

Anyway, with the drivers side window unit pcb removed, I measured the resistance from box 101 to ground yesterday, as I manually locked and unlocked the door. I expected it to be a good 0 ohms in one position but found that it never gave a good short, it was more like 20 ohms and variable. Sometimes it was open-circuit !! I'm beginning to wonder if the microswitch/s in the drivers door lock assembly, is faulty. I will repeat the exercise on the passenger door soon to see what resistance I get there.

On a different tack. Several months ago when I thought my original Central Locking fault was due to the Convenience Unit I bought a second hand one via ebay. It has the basic part number 6Q0 959 433 G (as did the original) but it finishes "III 12302 : H01/S0001" whereas the original number finished with "II 30305 : H02/S0002". I did a swap (and did nothing else) but it made no difference to my faults. Was I fooling myself to think that I could just swap it ? Does the difference in the HXX/SXXXX numbers mean that the boxes have different software (?) and they cant be substituted without first recoding the ebay one. Because I didnt think I could do this (no VCDS available) I put this experiment down as "inconclusive".

End of Captains Log for 21/4/16 !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
joe005

My CL had a fault whereby the rear doors intermittently unlocked/locked with the remote when I got the car, but this seems to have resolved itself. When I was doing research on this, it seems that the microswitches on these locks tend to get gunked up and this can cause many woes, but I didn't get to the stage of stripping the lock down as the problem went away (for now). I did ask VW if it could have been an issue with the CCM as both the CL & EW were on the blink, but they said they were unrelated issues and the issues were with the corresponding units, not the CCM (in my case).

Update on the windows - I was due to pickup the new motor unit tomorrow, but driving today I tested the windows and they worked perfectly... tbh I hadn't tried them since stripping down the motor, cleaning it thoroughly and lubricating everything after replacing the relay and capacitor. The O/S window which I serviced the motor on and lubed, goes up considerably quicker than the N/S. I've no idea why it didn't work when I put it all back together, but I'm going to wait and see before replacing anything... will let you know in due course.

Is your EW motor still running since you changed the relay and cap?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hobby2016

I haven't changed the relay and capacitor yet, in fact I've done no soldering at all on the EW pcb so far. Think I'll save this till last.

I wanted to check out the passenger door Lock microswitch and wiring first (as per my previous post) to see if the switch behaved the same as in the drivers door but my wiring is just not the same as the 9N1, 9N3 or Haynes manual schematics. For example, all the diagrams show the "important" wire which goes to the switch contacts, as green/yellow. I dont have any green/yellow wires !

You said in an earlier post that you had a set of 9N3 diagrams, are they the ones from NIGE8021 at the start of this topic ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
joe005

I found another diagram, but I've not had the chance to go through it thoroughly as the relay and capacitor seem to have sorted my issue.

I'm happy to share but it's too big to attach here, PM me your email and I'll send you what I have.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
joe005
On 4/3/2016 at 19:50, joe005 said:

Today I replaced the relay, so far I’ve replaced the capacitor and relay.

Reassembled the control board and put it all back together in the door, all worked perfectly initially. After a few minutes though, the same thing happened and windows stopped working. Disconnecting the larger of the two plugs on the motor then immediately reconnecting it gets everything working again for a while, same thing happens if you remove the fuses for the two front windows for a few seconds.

Not wanting to give up, I removed the control board and stripped down the motor, cleaned the commutator, greased all shafts and contact points, checked the brushes and all looked good and moved freely. Reassembled (I can do this with my eyes closed now :) and same issue… all worked for a while, then dead.

At this point I’m not sure if it’s something which can be programmed in VCDS/VAC-COM, or just a faulty control board which needs to be replaced; I suspect the board.

I’m going to have to bite the bullet and swap out the control board and motor assembly. Will report back when I get my hands on a replacement.

 

UPDATE

 

As of today the windows have both been working for over a week following the replacement of the ACT 512 relay and 100uF capacitor and a clean and lubrication of the motor (not sure if this was necessary for the repair).

 

I've been checking both windows each drive and drive and this seems to have resolved the issues.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue. Terms of Use Privacy Policy Guidelines