put a square of tape over the outside until you can buy some grommets 

Cheers steveo - the simplest ideas are the best!

 

Aside from the cylinders everything is in reasonable nick.  If this side (the nearside) hadn't lost that bung (cos that's the half it's got corroded on) it would be in better nick than the far side - which puzzles me a little?!

 

Not gonna get time to paint tonight but giving it a good cleanup.

OK - here is where we're at now - it's those tabs again but they're worse on this side.  Should I be concerned?  Is this making the job a waste of time?  Is it the force of years of braking that does this?

 

Here's the pic:

 

id be inclined to bash that with a hammer and drift ...see if anyone else can confirm theyre bent

As Steve says just bang them back into line, they have probably been bent by someone levering the drums off and the shoes being stuck so bending those tabs

Thanks guys.  I'm quite worried about banging them back - they look pretty tough and wouldn't want to end up with the back-plate bending instead!

 

Will have to give it a go and start gently to see what collateral damage there may be first. Probably be a bad idea to heat first - I might snap them off.

 

I can't see how levering the shoes on and off would cause this.  I levered 'em on and off and although the bottom spring is very very tough I don't think it will do that.

 

One is slightly bent on the drivers side but it doesn't affect where the 'hat-spring/hold-back-spring/coil-spring' (whatever that's called) holds back the shoe.  The spring holds it back away from it. However got no idea what's happening inside the drum when the car is in use of course.

Edited 21 July, 201610 yr by cosaw

OK. Just had two big lump hammers back to back on it and it doesn't look like the tabs are gonna go anywhere without considerable force or a large amount of heat involved.  More force than I'm happy to put in I think.  Can't risk causing more problems for myself.  I've checked the shoe wear and it doesn't seem to have affected that adversely. Also if it's the same as the other side the hat-spring seems to be keeping the shoes back well enough and I can check that again 1000 miles down the road from now.

 

Anyone else got any ideas of why that happens on drum brakes?  I guess most of you guys deal with discs all round these days?

id say someone heavy handed has bent it in the past....its a thick bit of metal but i reckon a good slug with a club hammer would have it back where it needs to be 

Thanks steveo - you're probably right on all accounts.  However, it's at least 3 mm thick and the back-plate ain't much thicker.  If someone else was prepared to give it a whack and then fix it when things went wrong I'd probably let them.  Me being the stressed out anxious type I'm gonna leave it and take the safe route for now.  If it becomes a problem (when I take the drums off to check - down the line) I'll have to address it.  I guess there are bolts on the back of the plate for all that but they'll be corroded to hell after 16 years near road level and a bit much to take on at the moment for me.  The old shoes are so evenly warn that I'm hoping it's gonna be a non issue.

 

Anyway there'll be more questions to come I'm sure so stay tuned!!

Edited 21 July, 201610 yr by cosaw
Spelling correction!

Very sorry for the long post but it's not straightforward to explain.  Thanks to all whom are helping.

 

Next hot topic - Gunson Eezibleed One Man Bleeder Kit.  I've been having no end of problems with this.  Only way I can safely stop the Master Cylinder Reservoir (read MCR from now on) from overflowing is to use only 10 PSI in the tyre.  On second usage I tried over 15 PSI and it all came out past the seal on the MCR - thankfully I had water on hand.

 

So the problem I'm having (especially when it overflowed) is that as soon as I pressurise the system the MCR gets almost filled to the brim way above max.  When it overflowed it was full and this meant I had to go below minimum on the pressure vessel to introduce air into the MCR at the top before I could take the MCR cap off (otherwise brake fluid would have gone everywhere again!).  However, the instructions say you mustn't go below minimum on the pressure vessel!  I had no choice when the MCR was full.  See the picture and hopefully it will make sense.

 

Air bubbles certainly get sent to the MCR when you first pressurise the system because they're already in the pipe - surely this is the same as if you send air when the pressure vessel is empty and therefore below minimum?

 

 

 

So my current situation: All back brakes assembled.  Front caliper nipples seized for many years.  Back right wheel had almost a litre of fluid (minus what went on the floor) sent to it.  MCR never dropped below minimum, let alone max, BUT THE PRESSURE VESSEL WAS ALLOWED TO GO BELOW MINIMUM TWICE, in order to introduce air back into the top of the MCR so that fluid didn't go everywhere when I took the cap off.

 

Wanted a brake before I faced the nipples on the front calipers.  Am I gonna have to crack them open and bleed the whole system from scratch before I drive??  Brakes feel fine.

 

Apologies again for my long winded approach to things.

Edited 22 July, 201610 yr by cosaw
Corrections.

ive ran my easy bleed dry as long as the fluid in the cars tank stays above min it should be ok

 

never had a problem with overflowing though...are you sure its all assembled right ?  smear of fluid on the rubber seal and crank it on as tight as you can by hand, ive put 25psi though mine before 

 

if the pedal is hard like before then it shouldnt need further bleeding , although would be nice to flush new fluid through the fronts 

This is from the dealers manual,

"it is important to ensure the filling pressure of 1 Bar (14.5 psi ) is not exceeded "  " if the filling pressure of 1 Bar (14.5 psi) is exceeded, proper bleeding of the hydraulics is no longer assured"

I had one of those Gunsons and it always leaked on the MCR so it ended up in the bin !! these days I use a vacuum pump to suck the majority of the fluid through, then use a one man bleeder with a non return valve to finish the job

Cheers guys - awesome respones!

 

Steveo: I've been careful not to 'over-tighten' because the Gunson manual warns against it.  It sort of says tight enough but not too tight.  I don't think I got it tight enough.  The Gunson Manual I have says maximum pressure 20 PSI.  I had it leak both past the brass nuts at the pipe and the main seal on the lid.  Yes I put some fluid on the seal - a good tip though.  Tonight I just went 1/8th of a turn past hand tight like the manual says and it was OK to bleed the back left just a little to get the air out of the new cylinder.  I decided not to pass much cos didn't see any point in wasting fluid if I was doing things wrong and needed to bleed the whole system afresh.  I plan on flushing the fronts but wanted a short break (if I can't get the bleed nipples open then it will be new calipers - I've got the new nipples just need to get the old ones out).  After spending most of the week on the backs didn't want to spend my weekend on the fronts and wanted the car to use in-between. Anyway sounds like I shouldn't have caused a problem - which is good!

 

Nige: That's some useful info from the Dealers Manual.  As I say the Gunson manual gives the same warning but for 20 PSI as the max.  What will happen if the pressure is too high - aside from leaks, what is not assured?  I haven't seen a vacum based system.  So is the one man bleeder you have like the Gunson but better and you just finish off with that?

 

Some other points.  What came out of the lines was almost no difference in colour from the new stuff I put in.  The old stuff looked in very good condition and it's been in there way too long.  The only job that's been neglected on this car.

 

A problem I did have was air getting in around the threads of the bleed nipples.  The only way I could get most of this to stop was to make sure my waste container bottle and clear tube were above the level of the cylinder I was filling.  Even then - every time you opened the nipple a few tiny bubbles would get drawn in.  Must have been the threads cos the pipe I had on the nipples was so air tight I couldn't pull it off but had to cut it with a scissors and then get the last bit off with a knife.

 

Oh... Also not 100% on bleed sequence. Right rear, left rear, right front, left front means driver-side rear, passenger-side rear, drivers-side front, passenger-side front - correct or not??

Edited 22 July, 201610 yr by cosaw

if its under pressure then bubbles shouldnt go in via the threads ....id not worry about that , and if fluid is passing at 10psi or so then no need to use more , i had a golf that wouldnt move fluid until 20+

 

the front nipples ....i would buy some plus gas and apply daily , give the nipple a firm tap on the end with a hammer , enough to try and jarr the rusty threads and then keep plus gassing over a few days .,,,then when you feel brave use a 6 sided spanner /socket to try and open it , if it snaps at the head its still airtight so you can use the car while shopping for a solution

This is the vacuum bleeder I have http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-BRAKE-FLUID-VACUUM-PUMP-BLEEDER-PROFESSIONAL-KIT-SET-TESTER-HAND-HELD-/122055015781?hash=item1c6b0bbd65:g:NzEAAOSw4s9XkfHa  then I use this http://www.halfords.com/workshop-tools/tools/hand-tools/europat-vizibleed-brake-and-clutch-bleeding-kit to get the last of the air out of the system, only downside with both systems you have to keep a check on the fluid level in the resevoir

Thanks for all the details guys!

 

Steveo: You said ' if its under pressure then bubbles shouldnt go in via the threads '. I can't work out where it was coming from then.  As said, the only way I could make this problem go away was to have my drain bottle and tube above the level of the bleed nipple. Not seen Plus Gas but have been using this: http://www.halfords.com/motoring/engine-oils-fluids/lubricating-penetrating-oil/wd-40-specialist-fast-release-penetrant-250ml  Near the beginning of the year I wire brushed up the front nipples and used the penetrating fluid on them over and over through the course of a day.  Since then I've left alone to do the rear brakes first.  Intention now is to switch to the front for the rest of the bleed.  I've seen numerous ways of freeing these nipples up on Youtube and I think I'm gonna need some heat at some point and plenty of TLC.  Certainly on the drivers side we're well past having six sides on the nipple!!  No it's gonna have to be Vice Grips etc.  I'll go gently with the hammer too for the same reasons.  Thanks for the great advice.

 

Nige: I will check out your bleed solution and think about using it next time.  I'll probably bleed it in a year (after completing this time) just for the sake of the fact it's not been done for so long and I can get some practice in.

 

Regarding the last paragraph of my last post - have I understood the bleed sequence right? Also Haynes says bleed 250 ml per wheel - doesn't seem like a lot - what do you guys think?

Edited 23 July, 201610 yr by cosaw
Further information.

does it not make sense to you that if the fluid is being forced out at 10psi then theres nothing to make bubbles go backwards /upstream ?......it should bleed if you took the nipple out and let it run out onto the floor ,just messy

 

btw....alot of folk say you should bleed the rears with the wedge in the off postion so that the pistons are fullly in , ive never bothered but just telling you incase you struggle

 

plus gas is regarded as one of the best release fluids , might be worth hunting some down 

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Irwin-Bolt-Grip-Remover-394001/dp/B0000CCXVZ

they work well on rounded fasterners 

Yes, it appears to make perfect sense yet I can only report what I saw.  I made a one man bleeder like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wwq1Vlk4Wg It wasn't the fact that the bubbles went backwards it was the fact that they appeared to come out of the nipple at all in the forwards direction.  I was just getting too much air coming out of what was a working system with hardly any leakage while replacing the cylinder.  The threads were the only entry point I could think of.

 

Thanks for the tip on the wedge key. I bled them straight after fitting so they were in the position as you say.

 

Will have a look for Plus Gas.

 

Nige, and also a friend of mine, recommended those Irwin Bolt Grip Removers to me in the past.  Think I'll have to snap some up while the price is good.

 

ive found you will see 5-10+ mm size bubbles in the pipes ....thats the air you need to clear and worry about , once theyve gone theres almost always fine micro bubbles most likley drawing in from the threads or bleeder pipe , dont worry too much about those , say 200ml of clear fluid should do it no bother

 

once its finished smear some grease around the nipples so theyre mint next time 

Thanks steveo - that's the kind of information I need.  Yes it was those micro bubbles that were getting in any time I opened up the nipple.  Will get hold of some Plus Gas and probably the Irwin Bolt Grippers at the same time as I think they're both on Amazon at a reasonable price.

Edited 23 July, 201610 yr by cosaw
Corrections.

you will know when theyre bled right....the pedal is hard first push , vs soft then gets firm after a few pushes when air is in the lines 

Great stuff!

 

Bleed sequence

Rear Right

Rear Left

Front Right

Front Left

And by right we mean drivers side - yes?

Yep :)