Hi guys and gals!  I know we're supposed to close are own threads when our questions have been answered.  However, as I sort of haven't finished the job - got to crack those front nipples open if I can - is there any harm in keeping the thread open?  Things tend to take a bit of time with me!

carry on...good luck

I'll edit the title to remove the "drum" then it'll cover the fronts as well :)

Cheers guys! Been PlusGas-ing away a little a day till I'm ready!

plus gas is the  nuts ....just undid all the exhuast manifold nuts on a 28 year old untouched engine that id soaked overnight

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plus gas is the  nuts ....just undid all the exhuast manifold nuts on a 28 year old untouched engine that id soaked overnight

 Like this

You're helping improve my confidence a little. Going to get a blow torch and get a little heat on them too just to give myself the best chance and maybe give it a go this week.  I got the basic set of the Irwin bolt grippers in as well!  Had a look inside the drums on Friday and everything is looking good. Got a blanking grommet to close that hole on the backplate LHS. Also, those bent "tabs" we discussed don't seem to be affecting anything with the shoes staying back away from them.  Adjuster wedge seems to be working better on RHS - that was the side I put more anti-seize on.  Managed to pull the wedges down an extra bit (while foot-brake depressed) with a really strong pointy implement which made hand-brake feel even better.  Hand-brake is like new and holding without effort on the steepest hills.

Edited 7 August, 201610 yr by cosaw
Further information added.

So had a go on the front nipples today with little progress.  Forgot to take some pictures. Far-side front nipple has around 4 sides so I can get some vice grips on but obviously been rounded and ground down before so the wall is thin and won't take much to chew it off.  The Irwin bolt grippers would go straight through it.  My self lighting blow torch from B&Q didn't self light so is going back.  That being said got the far-side heated and cooled a few times and in between gently hammering on the vice grips to try and break the thread - including PlusGas.  Near-side nearly has 6 sides on it but it less than the original 11mm and a little rounded - more chance of getting that one out.

 

Anyway, two issues, due to lack of experience: not sure how much to heat without damaging the nearby rubber on the top slider pin.  Being too careful with torquing the nipples with the vice grips.

 

Plan might be to continue with the PlusGas daily. I tried making a reservoir around the nipple with plasticine but it failed quickly and leaked - I'd heard the idea before but didn't think it would work.  So I think experience is the key here so I'm gonna ask around a few garages that do brakes and see who is willing to take a look and have a go at the risk of breaking the nipples but looking after the rubbers on the slider pins and the seals on the pistons.

 

I've read about bleeding at the "banjo-bolt" but as the nipple is higher than that then I'd get an air bubble from the banjo-bolt up to the nipple which isn't ideal.  Also quite corroded round the banjo-bolt so again that might be more work in clean up than sorting the nipples.

 

Might have a go with a few heat cycles on Friday if I get a better blow torch.  Thing is I don't want to have to mess with the front calipers un-necessarily as there is still plenty on the pads and the discs are in spec too.  So I'd rather someone with more experience take a quick gander at the nipples to tell me whether I'm on to a non starter or not.

 

New calipers can probably be had for under £100 but again I'd have to delve further into the job whilst the brakes work just fine aside from being well over due by many years for brake bleeding.

 

Bleeding the backs alone has given me a firmer pedal.  Just want to be able to do the fronts so it wasn't a waste.

Edited 10 August, 201610 yr by cosaw

can you get anyone with a welder to pop round?    10 min job to pop a spare nut over it and weld on , the extreme heat will make it come undone

No real chance of that.  However if I get it to the right garage they will be able to do the same surely?  Anyway I'm having a bit of a think today as I've got other things to do.

 

I either go for it and risk braking the nipples and then make it a caliper job - where I've still got to get the caliper bolts out.  Maybe I should try braking the caliper bolts open first?

 

or

 

Take it to a garage to get the nipples out for me.  If the price is right then it will keep me on the road with ability to bleed the brakes and keep the car safe.

no incentive for a garage to try and save the nipple , more money in it for them to snap them off and sell you new calipers +fitting

 

id just go for it ...ive got them undone on much older cars , as long as youve soaked plus gas on them a few times , then a little firm tap with a hammer and try it 

 

if it does snap off , nothing to lose by hammering in a torx bit into the hole and see if that will turn 

OK, managed to put some short lengths of 15mm copper pipe over each nipple and plasticine them at the bottom to make a small bath for an overnight soaking of PlusGas. Also got some "Normfest Super Crack" freezing spray in.  Did several cycles of heating and cooling and firm tapping.  Bottom line is: vice/mole grips are only gonna churn up what's left on the nipples and they're not shifting.  Only real chance of getting any purchase and torque is the Irwin Bolt Grippers - I'm sure they'll dig in hard for certain but if they don't loosen the nipple there won't be much left to play with and I don't fancy my chances with a Torx bit hammered in.

 

So decision is to try and get somebody to weld a nut on as it seems it should work on all fronts - shock and then purchase and torque.  I've seen a few car mechanic hobiyist types working round the estate so i may try to call on them to check for people with skills/tools.  Monday I'll check out a local garage and see what they say.  I'll tell them I'll pay them to get the nipples out but if they get broken then I'll take the car away and replace the calipers myself - gives them more incentive.  Obviously I ain't gonna pay silly money.

 

If all that doesn't work out then I'll go to the Irwin Bolt Grippers and go for it.

 

Yes I'm being chicken but although the nipples look nice and clean now they still feel very fragile under tool.  Pictures of the RHS - the worst side:

 

 

Edited 13 August, 201610 yr by cosaw
Additional information

file 2 flats on em so the grips can hold on

 

these pliers are very good but probably a bit expensive for a one off....anyway youve done all you can 

 

 

It often pays to try tightening first before undoing them it breaks the crud on the threads

Tried tightening first. Got mole grips on and while applying tightening or loosening torque I'm also solidly tapping with a hammer in the direction of rotation.

 

Although it doesn't look like it there are two relatively good flats on that nipple and filing anymore off won't gain me anything much flatter but I'll loose more material.

 

Those Knipex Cobras do look pretty cool.  I'll keep them in mind as a future purchase and have a read on the net to see if they're as good as the video suggests.

 

Thanks for all the advice guys.  I'm gonna try and go in the welded nut direction somehow - I'll let you know how I get on.

they do work just like the video ...i have 3 pairs

 

if you can get a nut welded on that will have them off in seconds , ive gotten exh manifolds that have snapped flush off easily.....having said that i dont know why you dont just heave a bit harder and see if they undo 

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they do work just like the video ...i have 3 pairs

 

Cool, I'll keep them on the list.  No point in buying tools though if I'm gonna chicken out half-way through like with this.  I'll never know if I could have done it if I let someone else do it!

 

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having said that i dont know why you dont just heave a bit harder and see if they undo 

 

I suppose it's cos I don't know much about welding and I can't visualise how a nut can be welded on after I've snapped the end of the nipple off.  Hopefully a torx bit would round out rather than snapping off inside.  Trying to minimise my chance of having to buy new calipers.

 

Yes you're right it needs more heft - that's for certain. The mole grips I've got are 9" and I can get the very end flats on the flats of the nipple as tight as I can but I'm torquing enough that they still want to slip off rather than turn the nipple.  Probably could do with new mole grips if I'm gonna use the toothed area cos a lot of those are flatted on one side but they'd still really chew into the nipple.  Should I be using the toothed area of the mole grips??

Edited 14 August, 201610 yr by cosaw
Further information.

if the grips are slipping then id invest in better grips before paying a welder

Fair point. Gonna think on it a bit longer and at least try and find a welder Monday - free or paid -  cos at least today I'm taking a break from it.

 

Wish I was born with more motivation and go-ahead nature and with less worry for the times when things go wrong - we'd be done by now!!

I like the pipe and plasticine to make a small bath,  that's never crossed my mind.

 

Can't say what others would think but I've had success removing these by hammering a torx bit into the end of the bleed nipple. You want to pick one that allows the spikes of the torx bit to dig into the soft metal to get good purchase. If it's too small it may just spin and grind away metal in the nipple, too large and it might split the thing. I've had this work on ones that have already been snapped off too.

Pick a torx bit of the right size, hammer it in as straight as you can, then use a ratchet or even better one of those breaker bar connectors (if you have one) from a socket set.

Of course you do need torx bits if you dont already.

The only down side to this is if it doesn't want to budge, you will break the torx bit off in the bleed nipple. On the upside that just leaves more metal to weld a nut to

Hi JoeUK - thanks for your input on the Torx Bits much appreciated!  It should help if I have to go that route. I heard the plasticine idea from somebody to make small baths round nuts and stuff.  The plasticine I got was real soft and I couldn't get it leak proof on its own - adding the 15 mm copper pipe cured the problem.

Edited 14 August, 201610 yr by cosaw
Further information.

Ok guys here is where we're at.  Took it to a local garage that was recommended to me.  They said they'd used mole grips on them and that was enough.  I took a drill bit down with me for them to use to put backwards down the nipple to stop it collapsing - as I had seen done and tried myself.  I guess they used the bit because I didn't get it back - although I did forget to ask.  They probably knew about the trick but it was still worth mentioning.

 

The one I photoed above was more difficult they said.  I said I didn't think my mole grips were up to much and I didn't want to be the one that snapped the nipples off.  They said 'there's mole grips and there's mole grips!'.

 

So with new nipples in I can now bleed the fronts.  I'm pretty sure all the 'PlusGassing' and hammering and heating and freezing I did, will have helped in some way.  Condition of front pads and discs is pretty good so it's one job I shouldn't have to worry further about for some time.

 

So steveo - you were right, needed better grips, more effort and the willingness to take more of a risk and I would have done it myself.  On that front I am a little disappointed that I didn't try a little bit harder.  However for the £10 charge I can't complain at all and think I might have found a garage that I can call on when I need help beyond my capabilities.

 

I mentioned about the bent retaining tabs on the bottom of the drum backing plate and was told it was nothing unusual and nothing to worry about.

 

So before we close the thread I'm gonna make sure I bleed the fronts and then we'll be done!

tenner well spent then...would be more than that around here

 

and yes nothing worse than trying to work with poor tools , id suggest you get a small paintbrush and smear some grease around the threads once its all bled so they undo next time  

Edited 16 August, 201610 yr by steveo3002

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and yes nothing worse than trying to work with poor tools , id suggest you get a small paintbrush and smear some grease around the threads once its all bled so they undo next time  

 

Will certainly do so.

 

It was probably more me than the tools.

Not sure if you have already bled the fronts, but recently I tried something new (to me) that has made it almost effortless to bleed brakes and SO much easier to bleed clutch systems. You don't even have to take the wheel so off. 

 

I got a couple metres of clear tubing from B&Q, I think one is 3mm and the other is 5mm. I got 5m of both sizes. 

Put one end over the bleed nipple and the other end into the brake reservoir. I usually loop the pipe under the wiper blade so I can see it from the drivers seat. Open the nipple and then pump the brake pedal as many times as you want. You should see the bubbles pass through the pipe and the fluid goes back into the reservoir so no need to keep watching or topping up etc. 

You can go round the car many times doing the same thing until it's completely clear. I got the pipe longer because it's easy to do the rears. 

When I bleed a clutch (not on this polo) I take one end and put it onto the bleed nipple of the clutch slave and the other end onto a brake bleed nipple and open both. I then pump the brake pedal as many times as its takes until the clutch pedal is hard. With this method the fluid comes out the caliper and into the clutch circuit and moves the fluid backwards into the reservoir. 

 

Non of these "eazi bleed" things that work off tyre pressure are made to "bleed" the system but are intended to flush new fluid through an already bled system. 

 

Just thought id share this as it has made my life SO much easier and means I can change the fluid in all my vehicles myself and not put it off. 

Thanks dixy that sounds like an excellent idea.  You make a good point about the difference between 'flushing' and 'bleeding'.  We want to bleed the air out of course but actually swap the fluid (and so the swap would not actually be the bleeding bit) although it seems we use the term bleed interchangeably/incorrectly.

 

I managed to flush/bleed the fronts before reading your thread and although I don't think I saw any air come out - the brake pedal does seem to have hardened up further after doing the rears.

 

Thought I might as well throw in a picture of the 'PlusGas Bath' before final comments and then I can close up the thread.

 

 

Well it's Cam Belt and Water Pump soon - I know there are some good guides on here for that so hopefully I should be well setup and gaining a little more courage - although I did bottle out on finally turning those nipples out.

 

Many thanks again to everyone who helped out on this small project - I appreciate it!