I fucked up last night, and nearly stacked my daily. I have a lot of skidpan experience, and still got it wrong. Here's what I did.

Location: Back road, slightly twisty, hilly, undivided.

Environmental factors: Dark. White ice on road

Other factors: Slightly excessive speed for conditions, complacency "I know what I'm doing"

What happened:

Exitted left hand bend, found a sheet of ice in front of me.

Rear end stepped out to right.

Action taken:

Off pedals

Correct with reverse steering

Result:

Vehicle continued to fish tail wider

Action taken:

Correctted steering further

Result:

Vehicle enterred spin, nearside first

Action taken:

Dipped clutch, anticipated crash, went to damage limitation

Decision made:

Leave road backwards to reduce risk of personal injury.

Action taken

Allow spin to progress, regulate trajectory with steering.

Controlled cadance breaking.

Sit back in seat.

Result

Vehicle left road backwards, crossed verge and came to soft rest in mud. No injury or damage to property. Tow-out required.

What could have happened:

Vechile tipped over

Personal injury/fatality

Hit tree/other hard object

Collision, had there been a vehicle oncoming - would probably have caused Killed/Seriously Injured (KSI).

Hit pedestrian had there been one present (would probably have caused fatality).

Lessons learnt:

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but a lot makes you idle.

Observe conditions more closely and act accordingly.

Vehicle-specific - In event of skid, clutch immediately due to high amounts of torque being present on idle, which will continue to drive vehicle.

Why have I posted this on CP?

Bottom line is, I know how lucky I am to have the training I have, and to have got away with what happened. I would like everyone, no matter how experienced a driver they are, to think about how easily this could have happened to them in their surroundings (as I was sat waiting for a tow-out, someone in a small hatchback slid in exactly the same place, and missed sliding into me by inches), and ask themselves honestly how they would have reactted.

You don't have to post or say anything, just honestly have a think to yourself about it.

good man, i think alot of the noob drivers need to take note from this message and realise what they're getting themselves into when they recieve their pass certificate

Nice post, I take it you drive a non ABS car as a daily?

Could've ended alot worse had you not known what you were doing.

In a more modern car, there is no need for cadence breaking as ABS will do a far better job than a human anyways. A big mistake that more inexperienced drivers make is to leave off the brake when they feel the pedal vibrating.

wicked post haha

Nice post, I take it you drive a non ABS car as a daily?

Could've ended alot worse had you not known what you were doing.

In a more modern car, there is no need for cadence breaking as ABS will do a far better job than a human anyways. A big mistake that more inexperienced drivers make is to leave off the brake when they feel the pedal vibrating.

Are you joking?

ABS is hardly the most useful tool in icy conditions!

Yeti do you not have the Camry anymore? I thought that it was an auto? What would you do then? Just slip the lever into neutral?

Nice post, I take it you drive a non ABS car as a daily?

Could've ended alot worse had you not known what you were doing.

In a more modern car, there is no need for cadence breaking as ABS will do a far better job than a human anyways. A big mistake that more inexperienced drivers make is to leave off the brake when they feel the pedal vibrating.

Are you joking?

ABS is hardly the most useful tool in icy conditions!

Seconded, the valver it quite scary when the ABS kicks in in the ice, I prefer driving the GT in ice, feels I have more control.

Good post though Yeti, glad you and the car came out ok.

Takes me back to when I'd just passed my IAM and skid car training and thought "I'm a better driver now" then proceeded to stack 2 cars because I wasn't driving to the conditions one of which was on an icy country road like yourself I unfortunatly though went into the back of another car.

It taught me that having your IAM cert doesn't make you a better driver, its using the skills they teach you, especially the ones for perception and reading the road ahead, so if there is ice on a corner reduce your speed before the corner gently, turn in and just keep a steady speed round the corner, if the front slides wide or the back slides out, down with the clutch and just keep the front wheels pointing where you want to go.

I'll not go on, anyway I hope other members take a warning from this, I'd hate to see yet more "I've stacked my Polo threads" this year.

Yeti do you not have the Camry anymore? I thought that it was an auto? What would you do then? Just slip the lever into neutral?

Yeah, I do. The Camry's a front wheel drive auto with ABS, that'd have just been a get off the pedals like most vehicles. I was in the van (RWD 115bhp Transit TD).

As an aside, an ABS car would have slid like any other (could hardly stand on the road). The cadance was as part of damage limitation, no disrespect to anyone, but that's something which I'm not going to start discussing on here because it is in the realms of advanced skidwork and the sort of thing that can make things muchos worse done when done wrong.

Whilst reading that,i was confused as to why you lifted off the throttle. Forgot about the Tranny. But in a rear drive,I'm pretty sure id have only eased-off and fed it,in order to prevent engine-braking giving me the handbrake effect. Yet whilst its worked with rwd in the past,I've not drifted a Transit before and would have probably just left the road faster..

Still,even for me and my regular sideways driving style,its easy to say what i would've done,its easy for any of us to say what we would've done. With the pressure of the situation,it can be too nervewracking at the time to get it right,especially when its so unexpected,you're not in the mood for it,and no two occasions are the same - you're unbalanced.

But given the fwd nature of this site,its probably wise to point out that ABS will only put you in the trees in such a scenario - and whilst keeping your foot/ putting your foot back/ on the throttle is the right course of action,that brings its own problems which must be addressed (countersteer is beyond vague on ice,even without power steering).

No,preventing yourself from getting into a slide in the first place is by far the best course of action - something you clearly acknowledge.

Whether ice,in your case,or a truck in Leanne's,its particularly dangerous out there at the moment people.

Rantesque post over.

Why not correct via a powerslide or even a full drift is a good question.

Whilst I do have a fair amount of experience at powersliding, I wouldn't use it in this situation as:

a) The length of the sheet of ice was unknown, and I later found out, bloody long, so I'd probably hit worse traction before coming out of the slide. My aim in a slide is regain traction and correct trajectory.

b) Hanging the back end out on a car's one thing and not outside of my comfort zone, trying to 4 wheel drift a transit van on a sheet of ice is another. I am totally aware of my limitations on that front.

c) A transit van has a high centre of gravity (think Richard Hammond trying to flick a Rascal van).

d) Drifting maintains speed, if I'm going to have a crash, I'd rather be going as slow as possible.

I'm not going to say I'd never use powerslide correction, there's a time and a place for it if you've had the practice and you have the experience of doing it in that vehicle.

Going for engine braking is normally the best option, as it won't lock a wheel like the handbrake will, and won't cause further loss of traction if done in a smooth manner (slap it down a cog ain't a smooth manner).

Dont be too hard on yourself,sounds like you made the best of it - no harm done and that's gotta be a success.

Even still,i think you need some lessons from Nathgun,mate

good post- to be fair i cant beleive you thought about that much while it happened.

I spun my fiat chiq sporting the weekend after i got it. It went a bit like this...

What happened:

Approached a bend too fast, bend drops on exit as heads down a hill. Half way around the turn the back went and car started to spin.

Action taken:

Crapped my pants and screamed like a girl

Result:

(I think) the car spun full circle 2, maybe 3 times, and ended face first in a hedge on the left hand side of the road.

What could have happened:

R.I.P

good post- to be fair i cant beleive you thought about that much while it happened.

To be honest, a lot of it's subconcious now, I didn't even realise I was doing the pedals off and first correction. The thinking kinda kicks in when you're sat arse backwards on the verge waiting for a tow out thinking "OK, I think I did something wrong there"

Action taken:

Crapped my pants and screamed like a girl

People say lol, but I genuinely did laugh out loud at that.

And in response to what Yeti said above about going too deep into this conversation because a little knowledge on the Internet is a dangerous thing, I take your point, but I do think this thread is interesting and important because too often people think they're driving Gods when they're in their early years of driving, and then they end up killing themselves.

I'd love to do a skidpan lesson, I'd find it so useful (particularly with the state of the roads at the moment) how do I go about booking this sort of thing?

Edited 8 December, 200817 yr by 6Newan

Ask your local police. I know Lincs police hold courses on their skidpan. If not, they'll be able to direct you to somewhere.

Failing that, ask RoSPA or IAM.

2 tips for winter driving:

yokie a539's and a screw loose in your head...

local council gritters have avoided my village 2 days running...

i have NO grip with the yokies on ice and they are sketchy in the wet, but progressive.

my usual reaction to hittin black ice depends on where it is, we dont get much on corners due to them being cambered a little, but on straights i just gently ease off the throttle, and very gently try and brake a little, just gently, hold onto the wheel and hope it carries on straight and i get grip before next braking zone... thankfully GT's are pretty good at engine braking...

mid corner i'd be fooked if it was in my braking zone, post corner i'v got away with just booting it recently, not fun tho :( mad understeer :(

i hate black ice. :( but am driving much more carefully now its about especially with these tyres...

I generally try to get my speed off before enterring a bend for that reason.

I generally try to get my speed off before enterring a bend for that reason.

i do too, but sometimes i just wanna give it beanz...

i'd love to do some proper skidpan trianign, i'v had some nasty tank slappers an fwd lift-off oversteer, and it'd be nice to know how to recover it properly!

Its impossible to look this deep into it surely. The fact is that whilst on ice the friction on the road is close to sod all. If you are doing more than 5mph then it dosent matter what you do, until you reach sound tarmac its going where it wants to.

I want to hear more about this skidpan training, are there companies that do it or something?

I drive dead slow in shit conditions, but it would also be very beneficial to get proper training.

Its impossible to look this deep into it surely. The fact is that whilst on ice the friction on the road is close to sod all. If you are doing more than 5mph then it dosent matter what you do, until you reach sound tarmac its going where it wants to.

You'd be suprised.

I want to hear more about this skidpan training, are there companies that do it or something?

Yeah, used to do quite a bit for one. Try your local police, rospa or IAM in the first instance (and that order) and you'll probably save yourself muchos monies.

I generally try to get my speed off before enterring a bend for that reason.

i do too, but sometimes i just wanna give it beanz...

Actually, it's generally faster to enter at your slowest point and increase your speed as it is safe to around the bend. I think anyone who's been in a vehicle with me will vouch for the fact that whilst I'm safer than most people on the road, I don't dawdle.

Its impossible to look this deep into it surely. The fact is that whilst on ice the friction on the road is close to sod all. If you are doing more than 5mph then it dosent matter what you do, until you reach sound tarmac its going where it wants to.

not really...

with ice its about moving the weight about, and your starting momentum.

if you hit ice and you were travelling in a straight line, you *should* stay in a straight line if you change nothing, it you are on a perfect, flat icy surface.

however

if you hit ice mid corner, you'll get what feels like a crazy amout of understeer, and the car will behave like the kurb is a mega-powerful magnet, as you dont have the traction to decide the direction... so momentum and weight decide it for you... if the back end is REALLY light (maybe coz you've tried to slam the brakes on), it might try and say hi...

seen it done. it gets messy at speed.

I remember pushing my car too hard one night in the pouring rain, like an idiot i decided id be okay to take a roundabout a bit quicker than i normally would, and discovered the joys of major understeer. The exit was an off-camber downhill left hander, with a smooth patch just before the apex...

Had silly amounts of lock wound on and no steering whatsoever, if i'd tried to brake out of it a spin would have been unavoidable. Managed to let off the throttle gently and regain grip before it got nasty, but it was only afterwards that i realised just how instictive the attempt to recover it was, i didnt even think just did it. On reflection i realised how close it could have been to a serious incident, the speed i was travelling was nowhere near appropriate for the conditions on that particularly slippery corner.

After that incident i always drove it with far more respect!