I prefer older cars - ok they can have some rust and reliability issues sometimes. They have more character! Newer cars are sold as more economical, but if you drive them to be economical - then they end up being no fun!

This scheme will be over soon anyway - only the first 300,000 buyers are elligable!!!!

Agreed, glad they're stopping it, why don't they just bann 2 stroke if they want to reduce pollution.. or stop flying round in v8 choppers they bought off the yanks.

Do you like my use of "they"

I'll never trust a scotsman to run the country.

jeremy Clarkson for PM :-)

amen.

Whilst fitting a PhilJ kit and polybushes yesterday,a neighbour told me i can trade my Polo in for a Fabia and get a quarter off the price. I asked him if he thought i should then sell the Skoda for ten grand,buy my Polo back for a grand,and have 1,500 in my pocket for nothing. But before he could answer,i pointed out that there were two flaws in his plan.

1) i couldn't buy it back because Skoda are happy to crush a perfectly good 24yo car. And..

2) more importantly,the Skoda wouldn't be worth ten grand - it'll be worth 7,500 because most of Skoda's customers have had their car a year,hundreds will sell for 7,500,and nobody will be prepared to pay the list price.

So id effectively just be scrapping my car in order to buy a 7,500 pound car for 7,500. Whoopy-doo,great deal.

This scheme pisses me off alot! There are several reasons why its a joke.

It's based on the fact that alot of people know bugger all about cars/the environment, and assume any new car is more environmentally friendly than an old one, which in the case of new polo vs. old polo based on fuel consumption and CO2 emmisions is true, forgetting that the bastard thing has to be made from raw materials, which themselves create a whole load of pollution when made, not to mention the fact that all the extra components on the new car will one day have to be disposed of.

Running an old car (which is the equivalent to setting up your own coal fired power plant in some people's eyes because of emissions) must be more environmentally friendy than making a new one. I remember seeing a study a couple of years ago that concluded that the most eco friendly car in the world, including building it, running it, and recycling it, was a Jeep Wrangler or Cherokee (can't remember) from the mid 90's. Gordon Brown forgot to tell us that.

Sending money overseas to companies who are laying off uk jobs and closing facotries.

Ridding us of good cheap cars.

Killing off classics. I've seen something where Jag XJS's, Morris Minor's, an Autin 1100 (from 1966!), a Nissan 300ZX, MGB's etc. were all scrapped to get £2k off a shitty Korean thing. Also, think off all the fairly rare sought after cars of various marques and models (Escort RS Turbo's, Volvo T5's, Early Imprezas, Golf GTi, Polo's of whatever kind etc.) that are going to be scrapped because they're a little tatty. There's only so many enthusiasts out there who are prepared to spned a fair bit of cash on keeping a 20 year old, not fantastically reliable car on the road. I know most cars have to die at some point, but if this was introduced in the 70's, think of all the E-types, Mini's etc. that we wouldn't have anymore?

I can think of much more, but rant over (for now)

Absolutely spot on. The average joe public who know nothing about cars will be saliviating over being offered 2k off a car to get themself into debt. So a good post saying how some people will suddenly think the £200 banger is worth 2k and end up forgetting that they still have to pay for a new car even without the discount. Fair enough if it's a knackered 15 year old Rover 200, but what about a 10 year old mint condition 1.0 Polo with 40k - good run around, economical with plenty of life yet. It's sad a lot of cars that are fine will be scrapped. I've heard horror stories of nice Golf GTI's been traded in for Hyundais. One dealer on a forum said they took in an immaculate Mk4 Polo with just 60k miles, now destined for the crusher because of the governments faulty logic. Buying into the scrappage scheme is letting the government win, and letting idiocity prevail.

Another good point I read was there is little point in manufacturers building cars that are reliable and strong, etc, if they are to be scrapped in just 10 years. The average used to be 12-18 years, and that wasn't even mandatory. The amount of older cars on the roads is going to be vastly inferior in comparison to the newer ones, therefore their effect is negligible. On a long term this scheme could put smaller garages out of business - with people have new cars, taking them to dealers to get serviced. These garages will make a fortune off of the older cars, where customers may need a quick cheap fix and don't have to worry about keeping up stamps in a book.

If anything they should be slowing down new car production, not encouraging it. It's all just a money making excercise pulling the wool over peoples eyes by trying to make it seem all environmentally friendly.

Sorry for the rant, I feel really strongly about this subject. And to think in 2 years my GTI could become elegible is a joke.

Scrap the scrapage scheme!

Edited 3 June, 200917 yr by Mouse_GTI

Also the fact they cars HAVE to be crushed with no parts salvaged is bad for the environment. I know some fluids have to be emptied, but it's still 95% of the car not broken up into different re-usable or recycleable parts, hence more pollution to wherever it goes after

Whilst fitting a PhilJ kit and polybushes yesterday,a neighbour told me i can trade my Polo in for a Fabia and get a quarter off the price. I asked him if he thought i should then sell the Skoda for ten grand,buy my Polo back for a grand,and have 1,500 in my pocket for nothing. But before he could answer,i pointed out that there were two flaws in his plan.

1) i couldn't buy it back because Skoda are happy to crush a perfectly good 24yo car. And..

2) more importantly,the Skoda wouldn't be worth ten grand - it'll be worth 7,500 because most of Skoda's customers have had their car a year,hundreds will sell for 7,500,and nobody will be prepared to pay the list price.

So id effectively just be scrapping my car in order to buy a 7,500 pound car for 7,500. Whoopy-doo,great deal.

Point well made...but no one will see it like that.

Thing is, if you buy a new car worth 10grand from these scheme, it will be priced to you at that very second for £8grand. But then take into account the immediate depreciation once you drive it off the forecourt and the interest on the finace you've almost certainly taken out.

Means you'll probably end up paying £11-12grand for the car anyway.

And by the time you've finished paying it off it will only be worth £3 or 4grand.

Then over the course of those years you will have the increased servicing costs as you will have to go to a main dealer to get the book stamped.

Plus the increased insurance bill in most cases aswell.

And in some cases the increased road tax every year if its in one of those stupid made up band thingys.

But everyone will just think, "Wow they are going to give me £2k for my old car"

THE CASE FOR THE SCRAPPAGE SCHEME

Although i do not necessarily agree with the scheme, you have to consider the main points which support this scheme, of which there are a few:

Around 900,000 people are currently directly employed in the automotive industry, as we all know car sales have dropped sharply as the credit crunch has bitten as of late, although in most cases cars are viewed as vital, a new car is more of a luxury, therefore with credit tight, and money even tighter people just have not been buying new cars, with such a large amount of people who are directly employed with their jobs at risk, this would create a case for a boost in sales to support it anyway. It should also be noted that because car manufacturing industry tend to employ people in a high density from a geographical point of view, the regional economic effects of unemployment can be very sever, the high density magnifies this.

Many arguments have been made saying that it is less economical to produce and manufacture a car than to buy an old one? This is a cheap point as it conveniently avoids the fact that Car manufactures have a massive surplus of stock because of the sharp decline in demand. So by promoting the sale of cars this is mainly in order to rid these companies of this stock, create some short term revenue, that help cover the incredible fixed cost's of a car plant and wages etc. Furthermore I would argue that this scheme targets people who run older cars, and tend to have relatively low value, obviously below £2000 or else you would just sell it privately. A £2000 discount, as mentioned, does not go along way towards a brand new DB9, or even and R32, or even a Polo GTI for that matter! This means that most of the people who are taking advantage of this scheme, who wouldn't have bought a new car anyway are buying small cars, which are inarguably more uneconomical, considering they have already been built and are just been stockpiled.

It would be rich of the government to allow people to salvage parts from scrapped cars, as this would be perceived as a direct contradiction to the underlying point of the scheme, as it would promote the use of old cars.

I must stress i have not raised these points as a matter of personal opinion! I just felt the argument was entirely single sided, filled with sweeping statements about government! I thought that without real debate people would continue to be very narrow minded about the scheme! But i can assure you seeing perfectly good cars being scrapped makes me feel sick, and i am not as naive as to bow down to Gordo and his cronies and take his word for gospel on this matter, i mean really its just giving with one hand and taking with another after heavy fuel taxes that have just been rolled out!

And i have been living, breathing and eating economics for the last few weeks and this vent is a consequence of that!

way i see it is your getting up to 2 grand discount on a car but have the finance to swallow every month,but on top of that your getting a factory standard car that near everyone else drives,i like a car with a little age and character but more so because its developed to be the car i want through time,care and effort.if i won the lotto i wouldnt buy a new car..saying that??? i could buy a 32tonne lorry and load it with mps??nearest cliff???

What you're pointing out then Thom,is that our government want us to bail out inflated companies that have burnt-out because they were just plain greedy,and now the public has to pay for it? Yet again..

Does the idiot in number ten think that will work? Its a viscous circle,its not sustainable (like most of their ill-conceived ideas),the manufacturers are not going to dig themselves out of it with this.

We need,once again,a government who have the balls to protect their public and tell these companies where to go,and let them suffer for their own mis-management.

This is a cheap point as it conveniently avoids the fact that Car manufactures have a massive surplus of stock because of the sharp decline in demand. So by promoting the sale of cars this is mainly in order to rid these companies of this stock, create some short term revenue, that help cover the incredible fixed cost's of a car plant and wages etc.

So if the car industry has so much stock laying about that they just want rid of why don't they just say, instead of the scrappage scheme, for the next 3 months (or however long the scheme is on for) all cars coming from this stock pile have £2000 off?

Surely that would be a better more economical way of dealing with it and there wouldn't be so many 10 year or older cars crushed, alot of which are probably perfectly servicable.

It would be rich of the government to allow people to salvage parts from scrapped cars, as this would be perceived as a direct contradiction to the underlying point of the scheme, as it would promote the use of old cars.

So what about people like me who want to drive a slightly older car, can't afford a new car outright even with the scheme and doesn't want to take out finance?

At the moment my G40 needs a new drivers side wing mirror. What is the harm in me taking one off a Mk3 that has been traded into the scrappage scheme so I can continue to drive legally?

Instead of the mirror being crushed with the car and being left to rot in a hideous pile of scrap for years?

This government is so shit!!

Last year they wanted us to get out our cars, get public transport, be greener and get out of debt.

This year we have to scrap our old cars, buy new ones, which use more fuel and get into debt buying them.

The whole point is to get old cars off the road.

Not really though, as i dont see a 10 year old car as being 'old', its to get people spending again.

I work for a dealer and have had a few cars trading in under this scheme (or scam!), some cars are shitters, but there are some that are just a waste tbh, a t reg toyota rav4 with 22k, a h reg 1 owner fiesta with 30k for instance, they could be use for many more years but no, just crushed. A truck with a crane comes, matey chucks a chain through the front windows and stacks them on top of each other, 5 cars a trip, Such a waste. no harm in taking the good radios out and nicking the petrol though! lol

THE CASE FOR THE SCRAPPAGE SCHEME

Although i do not necessarily agree with the scheme, you have to consider the main points which support this scheme, of which there are a few:

Around 900,000 people are currently directly employed in the automotive industry, as we all know car sales have dropped sharply as the credit crunch has bitten as of late, although in most cases cars are viewed as vital, a new car is more of a luxury, therefore with credit tight, and money even tighter people just have not been buying new cars, with such a large amount of people who are directly employed with their jobs at risk, this would create a case for a boost in sales to support it anyway. It should also be noted that because car manufacturing industry tend to employ people in a high density from a geographical point of view, the regional economic effects of unemployment can be very sever, the high density magnifies this.

Many arguments have been made saying that it is less economical to produce and manufacture a car than to buy an old one? This is a cheap point as it conveniently avoids the fact that Car manufactures have a massive surplus of stock because of the sharp decline in demand. So by promoting the sale of cars this is mainly in order to rid these companies of this stock, create some short term revenue, that help cover the incredible fixed cost's of a car plant and wages etc. Furthermore I would argue that this scheme targets people who run older cars, and tend to have relatively low value, obviously below £2000 or else you would just sell it privately. A £2000 discount, as mentioned, does not go along way towards a brand new DB9, or even and R32, or even a Polo GTI for that matter! This means that most of the people who are taking advantage of this scheme, who wouldn't have bought a new car anyway are buying small cars, which are inarguably more uneconomical, considering they have already been built and are just been stockpiled.

It would be rich of the government to allow people to salvage parts from scrapped cars, as this would be perceived as a direct contradiction to the underlying point of the scheme, as it would promote the use of old cars.

I must stress i have not raised these points as a matter of personal opinion! I just felt the argument was entirely single sided, filled with sweeping statements about government! I thought that without real debate people would continue to be very narrow minded about the scheme! But i can assure you seeing perfectly good cars being scrapped makes me feel sick, and i am not as naive as to bow down to Gordo and his cronies and take his word for gospel on this matter, i mean really its just giving with one hand and taking with another after heavy fuel taxes that have just been rolled out!

And i have been living, breathing and eating economics for the last few weeks and this vent is a consequence of that!

i'm sorry mate but keeping the motor industry ticking over is no argument for the scrappage scheme, at the end of the day its a weak industry, if it needs this kind of scheme to get sales then whats going to happen when the scheme ends? besides if they are only selling off from the vast stock piles of cars already built and sitting gathering dust in storage depots up and down the land, then how is that going to get the car factory's working again? there not gonna build more new cars to refill the newly empty spaces, there not stupid.

the motor industry is just a part of the massive infrastructure that is the British economy, are they going to do the same for all the other areas of it? no, so why should they get a boost and no one else? imo its 2 fingers up to every one one outside of that industry that's shiting a brick wondering if they are going to have a job to go to next week.

we don't need new cars, what we do need is bread, milk, meat... so why are they trying to bail out the car firms but screwing over the farmers? where is the help for them? we need farmers far more than we need car factory.

couldnt agree more mclovin! and the absurd thing is that most of these manufacturers arent british owned anyway. granted some of their models may be assembled in the uk, and you could argue that the car industry supports a lot of smaller engineering firms but big deal. The car manufacturers are starting to source parts for uk assembled cars from outside the uk anyway.

I cant think of any other industry where they get such big bail-outs. if the company isnt economically viable it should just be left to go to the wall just like any other business would do.

I cant think of any other industry where they get such big bail-outs.

i can only think of one mate, the banks. the best thing about that one is we (the people of this country) gave them billions of pounds of our money to save them from bankruptcy yet they still have the cheek to refuse us loans if we have poor credit history!

haven't read any of this because theres too much to read but the amount of new cars sold has not increased. did they honestly thinnk tthat the people they are aiming at with old bangers can afford to buy a new car? the 2 grand they get off is th vallue it loses from leaving the forecourt anyway. and dealers could raise priices anyway. what a dumb idea.

i'm sorry mate but keeping the motor industry ticking over is no argument for the scrappage scheme, at the end of the day its a weak industry, if it needs this kind of scheme to get sales then whats going to happen when the scheme ends? besides if they are only selling off from the vast stock piles of cars already built and sitting gathering dust in storage depots up and down the land, then how is that going to get the car factory's working again? there not gonna build more new cars to refill the newly empty spaces, there not stupid.

the motor industry is just a part of the massive infrastructure that is the British economy, are they going to do the same for all the other areas of it? no, so why should they get a boost and no one else? imo its 2 fingers up to every one one outside of that industry that's shiting a brick wondering if they are going to have a job to go to next week.

we don't need new cars, what we do need is bread, milk, meat... so why are they trying to bail out the car firms but screwing over the farmers? where is the help for them? we need farmers far more than we need car factory.

Could not agree more.

At the end of the day, if the government and media (which is controlled by the government) had not made such a big deal over us looking like we might be about to go into recession, people would not have turned round and been like " oh shit theres a recession on the way, i better not spend too much money.... etc etc." and kept buying the shitpiece new cars as they had been.

But as a driver in the UK, I can tell you I am not happy.

wether its being bent over and raped up the arse each time u fill up with fuel (back up to 102.9p round here )

paying road tax so i get the privilege of driving around so called "roads" which are more like the surface of the moon.

being stopped every 5 minutes by the filth for no reason.

getting fucked over on insurance prices.

BUT I could trade my loon in under this new scam and get £2k off a new car. Sounds good. But then I think. Hmmmm do I really want to scrap my loon in exchange for a car which looks about as attractive as a pissed tramps dilated sphincter. After a heavy night of special brew and curry. And is also going to loose the £2k i just had taken off the price, by driving it home.

All in all as a UK motorist, I feel betrayed and lied to by this government and imo the lot of them can fucking rot and burn in hell.

/end rant

Thom, I agree with much of what you said about the industry, however, the stockpiled cars bit you used arguing against the fact that alot of pollution is caused building them is a bit flawed. Just because the cars are stockpiled does not mean that pollution wasn't still created when the cars were built. Fair enough, a person buying the car is not directly causing any new pollution because the car is already built, but x ammount was still released at the time of building.

As usual, the people high up in the companies are being given grants/money/funding etc., yet are still closing factories, laying off workers who have done nothing wrong, because they themselves fucked up, not us, who are paying for their mistakes, or the workers, who are losing their jobs, income, livelyhoods etc.

On another note, I saw someone saying that their old polo gets more mpg than a newish Jetta. Even if this is he case, the polo still pumps out much more shit than the jetta. You've got modern engine technology, management and catalysts to thank for that. Again, I remember seeing something saying that a mk1 fiesta pumps out overall 10 times more general emissions (not just C02) than a modern one, and this was probably 5 years ago, so it was the previous generation fiesta. The Mk1 may still get close or even beat the modern car's mpg figure, but this doesn't mean it's better for environment based on emissions alone.

On another note, I saw someone saying that their old polo gets more mpg than a newish Jetta. Even if this is he case, the polo still pumps out much more shit than the jetta. You've got modern engine technology, management and catalysts to thank for that. Again, I remember seeing something saying that a mk1 fiesta pumps out overall 10 times more general emissions (not just C02) than a modern one, and this was probably 5 years ago, so it was the previous generation fiesta. The Mk1 may still get close or even beat the modern car's mpg figure, but this doesn't mean it's better for environment based on emissions alone.

Yes the Jetta I'm using my not produce as much CO2 as my Polo but its heavier on my pocket. And to be honest looking at it in real terms using the Polo over the Jetta won't make the hole in the ozone or whatever any bigger by itself.

The figures say the Polo produces 166g/km and the Jetta is 143g/km. So the Polo produces more grams of CO2 per kilometer traveled than the Jetta but burns less fuel. But how much is the 23g/km of difference? And how do they work it out? And do I really care?

I can answer the last one, its a simple no. The Polo gives me more mpg so is cheaper to run, thats the one I'd rather drive, and I'm sure most other people in the UK would say the same.

The whole point is to get old cars off the road.

Bollocks. The whole point is a money making excercise. Greedy car dealers and the government - a marriage made in hell

What you're pointing out then Thom,is that our government want us to bail out inflated companies that have burnt-out because they were just plain greedy,and now the public has to pay for it? Yet again..

Does the idiot in number ten think that will work? Its a viscous circle,its not sustainable (like most of their ill-conceived ideas),the manufacturers are not going to dig themselves out of it with this.

We need,once again,a government who have the balls to protect their public and tell these companies where to go,and let them suffer for their own mis-management.

This is quite a radical free market view, so in this vein would you support the collapse of the banks? would you support the underprovision of health care? the whole point is that by supporting what little is left of what was once a internationally renowned manufacturing sector, the government is helping to support the economy. The point is, its a provision in supporting the industry to help get it on its feet. With the pound so week supporting manufacturing is just the right thing to do! What happens when all these people loose their jobs? Mass unemployment? Now if if we are talking about unsustainability i am sure that takes the biscuit! The reason the a car industry has taken the public eye is because we perform on a world stage, we produce foreign cars, ship to foreign economies, therefore if we start to crumble then this can be perceived as having global repercussions in the sense of direct knocks to global perception about the strength (and therefore investablilty) of the UK.

So if the car industry has so much stock laying about that they just want rid of why don't they just say, instead of the scrappage scheme, for the next 3 months (or however long the scheme is on for) all cars coming from this stock pile have £2000 off?

Surely that would be a better more economical way of dealing with it and there wouldn't be so many 10 year or older cars crushed, alot of which are probably perfectly servicable.

Because this helps support a goal that the public believe, right or wrong, to be desirable. The government is wrapping it up to make it look/sound nice. And the whole point is that this IS an economical way of dealing with it (i presume you mean in the environmental sense) it has been proven that with modern engine management total emissions CAN be reduced, therefore reducing our total emissions as a nation! As previously said, although they may be serviceable, this would simply contradict the entire policy, i suspect even gordo wouldn't do that.

So what about people like me who want to drive a slightly older car, can't afford a new car outright even with the scheme and doesn't want to take out finance?

At the moment my G40 needs a new drivers side wing mirror. What is the harm in me taking one off a Mk3 that has been traded into the scrappage scheme so I can continue to drive legally?

Instead of the mirror being crushed with the car and being left to rot in a hideous pile of scrap for years?

This government is so shit!!

Last year they wanted us to get out our cars, get public transport, be greener and get out of debt.

This year we have to scrap our old cars, buy new ones, which use more fuel and get into debt buying them.

I think you have issues with the establishment rather than the party here. I would say that in the case of you taking a wing mirror off, is different to the mass resale of all the parts, which has been suggested in the thread. The line between recycling, redistributing and profitably reselling is very thin indeed, which is why it is not drawn.

i'm sorry mate but keeping the motor industry ticking over is no argument for the scrappage scheme, at the end of the day its a weak industry, if it needs this kind of scheme to get sales then whats going to happen when the scheme ends? besides if they are only selling off from the vast stock piles of cars already built and sitting gathering dust in storage depots up and down the land, then how is that going to get the car factory's working again? there not gonna build more new cars to refill the newly empty spaces, there not stupid.

the motor industry is just a part of the massive infrastructure that is the British economy, are they going to do the same for all the other areas of it? no, so why should they get a boost and no one else? imo its 2 fingers up to every one one outside of that industry that's shiting a brick wondering if they are going to have a job to go to next week.

we don't need new cars, what we do need is bread, milk, meat... so why are they trying to bail out the car firms but screwing over the farmers? where is the help for them? we need farmers far more than we need car factory.

Production stopped as production overtook sales. The aim of the scrappage scheme is to provide strength to the industry, to support it through these challenging economic times, so that when it picks up, it is still here. You should also know that the government is taking a fair bit of advice to support the manufacturing sector. When the pound is week this makes exports relatively cheaper, this instantly changes the comparative advantage of production, creates a basis for trade, the hope is that the firms can get up and running, so that we are well established when the pound picks up. As said cars are a popular subject, so public support goes towards increasing consumer confidence, which is possibly the single most important factor for an economy. Your sitting in no.10, what is going to help consumer confidence, and maintain party confidence.....£2000 of a brand new car, or 5p of a bottle of milk, which is probably just goes towards an inflation aggregation, so no actual price is reduced, even though it may have been in REAL terms.

Although i UNDERSTAND HOW this scheme is reasoned, i do agree that it may be misdirected.

At the end of the day, if the government and media (which is controlled by the government) had not made such a big deal over us looking like we might be about to go into recession, people would not have turned round and been like " oh shit theres a recession on the way, i better not spend too much money.... etc etc." and kept buying the shitpiece new cars as they had been.

But as a driver in the UK, I can tell you I am not happy.

wether its being bent over and raped up the arse each time u fill up with fuel (back up to 102.9p round here )

paying road tax so i get the privilege of driving around so called "roads" which are more like the surface of the moon.

being stopped every 5 minutes by the filth for no reason.

getting fucked over on insurance prices.

BUT I could trade my loon in under this new scam and get £2k off a new car. Sounds good. But then I think. Hmmmm do I really want to scrap my loon in exchange for a car which looks about as attractive as a pissed tramps dilated sphincter. After a heavy night of special brew and curry. And is also going to loose the £2k i just had taken off the price, by driving it home.

All in all as a UK motorist, I feel betrayed and lied to by this government and imo the lot of them can fucking rot and burn in hell.

/end rant

Your first point supports my claim that consumer confidence is paramount, if we are told house prices are rising, we feel rich we spend more. Do we have more ACTUAL MONEY than last week? No. We are asset rich, but you don't have the money until you have made the sale.

In terms of tramp sphincter, that is personal opinion, one i will make no effort to contradict on a dub forum, i woulnd't really want to anyway, in a loose sense i agree that my mk4 is nicer than alternatives affordable through this scheme.

On another note, I saw someone saying that their old polo gets more mpg than a newish Jetta. Even if this is he case, the polo still pumps out much more shit than the jetta. You've got modern engine technology, management and catalysts to thank for that. Again, I remember seeing something saying that a mk1 fiesta pumps out overall 10 times more general emissions (not just C02) than a modern one, and this was probably 5 years ago, so it was the previous generation fiesta. The Mk1 may still get close or even beat the modern car's mpg figure, but this doesn't mean it's better for environment based on emissions alone.

Yes the Jetta I'm using my not produce as much CO2 as my Polo but its heavier on my pocket. And to be honest looking at it in real terms using the Polo over the Jetta won't make the hole in the ozone or whatever any bigger by itself.

The figures say the Polo produces 166g/km and the Jetta is 143g/km. So the Polo produces more grams of CO2 per kilometer traveled than the Jetta but burns less fuel. But how much is the 23g/km of difference? And how do they work it out? And do I really care?

I can answer the last one, its a simple no. The Polo gives me more mpg so is cheaper to run, thats the one I'd rather drive, and I'm sure most other people in the UK would say the same.

Totally agree with you mate, I'd much rather drive the fin old polo too, but there are other emissions as well as CO2 that you probably know of, and newer cars are better in that respect, it seems the government has brainwashed everyone into thinking CO2 is the only harmful result of combustion when there are actually several.

Anyway, theres a government petition to sign on the net against this in case anyone forgot, sure it won't do much, but its better than nothing.

Thom,if someone blows their bus money on a scratch card,i aint giving them a lift home. If they're carrying their kids lunch,tough shit.

I dont care if another manufacturer follow Rover,that's their problem because it's their fault.

I was made redundant this year myself,and i dont remember my employers being bailed out..

Labour's habit of corporate appeasement is not the way forward,as a possible result of that is a road we really dont want to go down.

Perhaps if these car companies didn't operate like they do,people with old cars could afford to maintain them properly at a main dealer - and all the catalyst-equipped cars of the last twenty years would be alot cleaner (even though catalysts are actually dirtier until the engine is warm,and short journeys are immensely popular in these lazy times).

The irony is this forum - Polos.

I'm a bit of a petrol-head and if i didn't care about the environment id have four carbs and four turbos in an XJS V12.

Say i trade my car in for a new 3.2,can the government say its greener than my Polo,which has an engine half the size?

Might as well trade it in for a brand new 5.0 V10 twin turbo if its all about age.

But its all about capitalism,and i aint interested.

Mikey for pm tbh

Slightly off topic and ill propbably get slated but....

Well LDV have gone!!!! so that means no more shit vans & minibuses.

Its just a shame about their workforce being made redundant.

And before anyone says "why are the shit", i drove one for 4 months for my then work, even with the radio at full blast you couldnt hear it over the engine, and it rattled, squeaked and made every other annoying noise possible, and motorways were just scary. worse of all it was only 2 week old when i started driving it.