Hi guys.

Basically i have 6n polo on coilovers and I've been fiddling around with the coilover set ups for a while but still keep getting understeer, ii handles fairly well its just the sharp corners where i get the problems.

Any help tips or advice pleaseeeeeeeee! :-D

slow down?

That wasnt really my intentions to be honest

crap tyres? crap suspension? crap driver? :-)

Most likely you are going too fast into the corners..

you don't say under what conditions you get understeer so its hard to help. But at the end of the day its a front wheel drive car they will understeer.. and actually most cars will understeer in the right conditions and most are designed to do so from the factory.

Nah got decent coilovers, got hankook tyres all round and understeer isnt particularly down to the driver.

Mainly i get the problem around sharper corners, but do not have the problem on sort of long sweeping bends, and I've been in a polo which doesnt really have the same problem, obviously you except understeer at some point but mine seems to be quite a lot.

If you are understeering then is down to the driver as they are the one making it do it nothing else is driving the car. It basically means you are going to fast into the corner for the car in its current setup. Or you are just going to fast full stop.

What engine does your 6n have?

What suspension do you have? Do you have any adjustment on them (besides hight)? The firmer the suspension doesn't relate to higher traction.

Just because they are hankook tyres doesn't mean they are any good. Infact I would have thought they are more middle of the road manufacture. What tyres sizes are you running? Tyre pressures too high? Change them for a more performance make/model?

As a driver you should be going slower into the corners and putting the power down when the wheels straighten up. The old saying 'slow in fast out' is pretty much always true!

nah i know how to corner a car, and yeah i know its too fast cornering for the current setup which is why i was asking for anyone elses experience with the setup, as i know the car is capable of more.

And its only a 1.0, the coilovers are height adjustable, and the tyres are one of the higher class tyres hankook make i payed quite a bit for them, i run 14inch 185 50, and I've played with tyre pressures and got them just nice.

and yeah fair point slow in fast out, but i know the car is capable of more and really in a fwd car you should be able to keep pretty constant power down round corners, not flat out obviously but nursing it.

If you have recently put the suspension on then I would get a full wheel alignment and tracking done. Personally I like no toe in or out on my car but that is my personal preference.

If you want to get it perfect I would also get the car corner weighed so that the height can be adjusted to equal weight over each wheel.

If the suspension is too firm then this can have the side effect of less traction and therefore understeer. What was the car like before the suspension change?

The tyres are not silly small size and 185 should cope with 1l ok but it could be the case they are just a bit pants. Perhaps next time you try something different (make or model).. Or if they tyres are new then they do take a couple hundred\thousand miles to bed in and give maximum grip.

Just like a RWD car you have to keep the varying the throttle (and steering input) to get/keep maximum grip especially on roads as there is surface changes and different grip levels.

So I think an full alignment is required not just tracking and then see where you are at. :)

Yeah i had all my tracking/geometry done and the camber set the other week cause i thought it needed it, which did make a hell of difference.

yeah i would do all the corner weighting lark but I'm not sure its really worth the hassle with the engine it has and that, so i dunno :/

and before the coilovers it was pretty rolly but that was cus of the shit wheels and tyres i had on it too, but it is better as it is now that from standard i just know its capable of more.

but yeah i heard 185 is a decent size to run on the 6n and the tyres are pretty scubbed in theyve done like 1500-2000 miles approx.

but yeah it just seems tighter corners really, however rough or gentle i am with it

Yeah i had all my tracking/geometry done and the camber set the other week cause i thought it needed it, which did make a hell of difference.

yeah i would do all the corner weighting lark but I'm not sure its really worth the hassle with the engine it has and that, so i dunno :/

and before the coilovers it was pretty rolly but that was cus of the shit wheels and tyres i had on it too, but it is better as it is now that from standard i just know its capable of more.

but yeah i heard 185 is a decent size to run on the 6n and the tyres are pretty scubbed in theyve done like 1500-2000 miles approx.

but yeah it just seems tighter corners really, however rough or gentle i am with it

If you have had that all done.. then it could just be the tyres are not very good (even though they cost a bit).

What make is the suspension? How do you find the ride... is it firm and bumpy?

Or you are just expecting more than the poor polo can give!! :-D

Yeah i had all my tracking/geometry done and the camber set the other week cause i thought it needed it, which did make a hell of difference.

yeah i would do all the corner weighting lark but I'm not sure its really worth the hassle with the engine it has and that, so i dunno :/

and before the coilovers it was pretty rolly but that was cus of the shit wheels and tyres i had on it too, but it is better as it is now that from standard i just know its capable of more.

but yeah i heard 185 is a decent size to run on the 6n and the tyres are pretty scubbed in theyve done like 1500-2000 miles approx.

but yeah it just seems tighter corners really, however rough or gentle i am with it

If you have had that all done.. then it could just be the tyres are not very good (even though they cost a bit).

What make is the suspension? How do you find the ride... is it firm and bumpy?

Or you are just expecting more than the poor polo can give!! :-D

i think he is lad, from my experiance with throwing a polo round, they dont like tight corners :p

i think he is lad, from my experiance with throwing a polo round, they dont like tight corners :p

The don't usually like any corners these 6n's!

I understand why he's focusing on going faster around corners though because the 1 litre certainly won't do much else in a straight line for a boy racers fix.

Yeah the rides pretty firm and yeah definately bumpy.

and liquidice yeah you get where I'm coming from

Edited 6 July, 201115 yr by mark_crox

Cleaned up the thread... Hargy90 you have repeatedly been warned about your conduct on here and current are on 80% warn.. one more gets you banned. So please think about what you write.

Well the suspension might be your issue.. a firmer ride does mean less roll in corners but can result in less grip meaning cornering speed is actually less. So it could be your shocks are too firm. I'm guessing that you have one of the cheaper suspension on the market and the main reason people get these is to get the car stupidly low. So the dampers and shocks are firm to stop bottoming out. You could perhaps look at getting some softer springs. But it could be worth selling the coilovers and investing is a decent fixed high set of dampers and springs.

Hargy90 if my mk4 knowledge is correct then the hub is connected to the damper strut by 2 bolts so the camber can be adjusted.

This was stolen from another forum and is very simplified but gives you a good idea.

I've put the 'Problem' in normal font, and the solution in Italics.

Effect of Suspension Changes

Before making changes to suspension components and settings, it is good to know how the changes will effect performance and ride. The following chart will help give you a general idea of the effect a specific change will make to handling and ride.

Spring Rate Changes - Modification Effect on Suspensiom

Increase front and rear rate Ride harshness increases; tires may not follow bumps causing reduced traction. Roll resistance increases.

Increase front rate only Front ride rate increases. Front roll resistance increases, increasing understeer or reducing oversteer.

Increase rear rate only Rear ride rate increases. Rear roll resistance increases, increasing oversteer or reducing understeer.

Decrease front and rear rate Ride harshness decreases; tires follow bumps more effectively, possibly improving traction. Roll resistance decreases.

Decrease front rate only Front ride rate decreases. Front roll resistance decreases, decreasing understeer or increasing oversteer.

Decrease rear rate only Rear ride rate decreases. Rear roll resistance decreases, decreasing oversteer or increasing understeer.

Antiroll Bar Changes - Modification Effect on Suspension

Increase front rate; Front roll resistance increases, increasing understeer or decreasing oversteer. May also reduce camber change, allowing better tire contact patch compliance with the road surface, reducing understeer.

Increase rear rate; Rear roll resistance increases, increasing oversteer or decreasing understeer. On independent rear suspensions, may also reduce camber change, allowing better contact patch compliance with road surface, reducing oversteer.

Decrease front rate; Front roll resistance decreases, decreasing understeer or increasing oversteer. More body roll could reduce tire contact patch area, causing understeer.

Decrease rear rate; Rear roll resistance decreases, decreasing oversteer or increasing understeer. On independent rear suspensions, more body roll could reduce tire contact patch area, causing oversteer.

Shock Absorber Changes Modification Effect on Suspension

Increase rebound and bump rates; Ride harshness increases.

Increase rebound rates only; On bumps, tires may leave track surface.

Increase bump rates only; Body roll resisted; outside tire loaded too quickly; car won't stabilize into a turn.

Decrease rebound and bump rates; Ride harshness decreases; car may float over bumps.

Decrease rebound rates only; On bumps, tires follow track surface more effectively; car may continue to oscillate after bumps.

Decrease bump rates only; Body rolls quickly; car is slower to respond to turn-in.

The Importance of Tire Temperatures

In the course of testing the handling of a car, use tire temperatures and driver feel to make adjustments. It is critical to monitor tire temperatures often. They offer valuable clues to the setup of the car. The areas of adjustment that tire temperatures are used for include: tire pressure, camber, body roll, shock settings, wheel width and transient handling response.

Reading Handling problem; Reason

All tires too hot; Compound too soft for track and ambient temperature conditions.

Front tires too hot; Understeer Front tire pressures too low.

Rear tires too hot; Oversteer Rear tire pressures too low.

Inside edges too hot; Too much body roll Too much negative camber or too much toe-out.

Outside edges too hot; Too much body roll Too little negative camber, too little toe-out or too much toe-in or wheel width too narrow for tire width.

Center of tread too hot; Tire pressure too high.

Edges on too hot; Tire pressure too low.

All tires too cold; Compound too hard for track and ambient temperature conditions or car not being driven to limit.

Front tires too cold; Inadequate load on front tires.

Rear tires too cold; Inadequate load on rear tires.

Solving Handling Problems

The key to setting up your suspension is in diagnosing what the handling problems are and resolving how to fix them. While car enthusiasts often baulk at the "black art" of suspension tuning, there's no reason to. As with working on the mechanical aspects of an engine, the trick to suspension tuning is in the troubleshooting; there is always a cause and an effect.

Problem Manifestation; Solutions

Steady state understeer during all corners or low speed cornering;

All turns or low-speed turns only If front tire temps are optimum and rears are low, stiffen rear antiroll bar; if front temps are too hot, soften front (most likely).

If front tire pressures are optimum, decrease rear tire pressure. Increase if chunking occurs.

Improper front camber, possibly caused also by too much body roll at front, causing excessive camber change.

Driver error: Turning in too fast or applying too much steering.

Steady state understeer only during high speed cornering;

If front tire temps are OK, increase front downforce.

If front tire temps are too hot, reduce rear downforce.

Steady state oversteer during all turns or low-speed turns cornering;

If rear tire temps are optimum, with fronts too low, stiffen front antiroll bar; if rear temps are too hot, soften rear antiroll bar (most likely).

If rear tire pressures are optimum, decrease front tire pressure. Increase if chunking occurs.

Improper rear camber.

Steady state oversteer during High-speed cornering only;

If rear tire temps are OK, increase rear downforce.

If rear tire temps are too hot, reduce front downforce.

Corner entry understeer;

Front shocks are too soft in bump resistance.

Too much front toe-in; use a small amount of front toe-out.

Corner exit understeer;

Rear shocks are too soft in bump.

Front shocks are too stiff in rebound.

Corner entry oversteer;

Rear shocks are too soft in rebound.

Rear ride height is too high (too much rake) compared to front.

Corner exit oversteer;

Rear shocks are too soft in rebound.

Too much rear toe-in or any rear toe-out.

Straightline instability;

Tire pressure is too low in one or more tires.

Too little positive front caster.

Too much front toe-in or any toe-out in rear.

Straightline speed too slow;

Too much overall downforce.

Too much toe-in or toe-out.

Ride height is too hight.

Excessive steering effort required during all corners;

Too much positive caster.

Front tire pressures are too low.

Chassis or suspension bottoms

Spring rates are too soft.

Shock absorber bump rates are too soft.

Inadequate suspension travel.

Inadequate ride height.

Please bear in mind that the above is for track cars but the priciple is the same but obviously when it talks about downforce.. this really isn't going to work on the road!

you may be able to open and move the two bolts mounting the hub to the strut. but there is not enough to adjust the camber any noticeable amount.

i am a fully qualified mechanic, tracking and allignment was paert of my training. i know what I'm talking about..

and please tell me what i have said in my last post that was so wrong?

I'm sorry if i dont condone the boy racer fix.

Edited 6 July, 201115 yr by Hargy90

you may be able to open and move the two bolts mounting the hub to the strut. but there is not enough to adjust the camber any noticeable amount.

i am a fully qualified mechanic, tracking and allignment was paert of my training. i know what I'm talking about..

and please tell me what i have said in my last post that was so wrong?

I'm sorry if i dont condone the boy racer fix.

The Camber on the front shouldn't need that much adjusting so the small amount might suffice. I'm guessing that if its not the garage doing the adjustment would say it could not be adjusted to the correct stock values?

Your posts were not the most constructive/helpful, but granted, they were far from the worse! :)

I don't condone 'Boy Racers' either but having a go at the guy doesn't help :)

You are right though and the only things it can be is Suspension/Driver/Tyres. I'm not sure to what degree of each though!

you may be able to open and move the two bolts mounting the hub to the strut. but there is not enough to adjust the camber any noticeable amount.

i am a fully qualified mechanic, tracking and allignment was paert of my training. i know what I'm talking about..

and please tell me what i have said in my last post that was so wrong?

I'm sorry if i dont condone the boy racer fix.

The Camber on the front shouldn't need that much adjusting so the small amount might suffice. I'm guessing that if its not the garage doing the adjustment would say it could not be adjusted to the correct stock values?

Your posts were not the most constructive/helpful, but granted, they were far from the worse! :)

I don't condone 'Boy Racers' either but having a go at the guy doesn't help :)

You are right though and the only things it can be is Suspension/Driver/Tyres. I'm not sure to what degree of each though!

correct, when the 6ns are lowerd it throughs out the camber and castor a mile, the little bit of adjustment in it wont make sfa diff. . trust me I've tryed with my own.

i do apologise for haveing a go. but to be fair, i have asked what make tyre and suspension he has to try and help solve his problem, but he wont answer these simple questions. he just said there good enoug, that there not the problem..

how is anyone suposed to help??

from my experiance in driveing my own lowered 6n, i had very little problem with understeer. it was just a mater of hitting the corner right and at the right speed, but no matter how hard i tried i couldnt take corners as easy as some of my friends civics, starlets ect.. but after time when i got to know the car i got better..

so to me the painfull truth is that its down to driver error.

and the only advise i can give is "slow in, fast out" and use the whole lot of the track. but keep it on the track!!

Thanks for you help mark i'll have a read of the stuff you put up

and hargy just saying mate dont just judge me straight away, and the reason i didnt answer your questions is because of the way you asked them, I'm not having a go but just saying.

The coilies are the jackson tuning.... yeah not the greatest but they do the job stiffening it up and does handle much better that standard....

and the tyres are hankook ventus sport k104, pretty decent tyres thats why i said they were good enough because they are good, all i wanted at the end of the day was any suggestions for suspension e.g. dead level, higher front lower rear sort of thing.

And just to add however i put the car into corners, i still get the same problem, depending on the line i take in and how hard i throw it in or how gently i put it in the bends.

fair enuf, i do apologise, i may have judged you but when you ask people who you dont know and who know more than you do on a certain topic. you have to take the good with the bad.

i may not have asked in the best way, but at the end of it all the questions i was asking was only to help you..

now all that aside, lets talk corners.. as was said before, stiffer is not always beter, sometimes you may find it will start to hobble out on some corners, giving understear. and there only height adjustable. camber or damper are not adjustable here.. so who ever said ther set your camber were ripping you off. and stiffer isnt all that matters, theres rebound, bounce and a load of that sorta jibber jabber. way to much for a road user to bother with, i haven't a clue of alot of it tbh.

i have fk automotives, just got the tracking right with a tiny bit of negative toe and i find it good enough for any corners i need to take. you itl understeer a wee bit but take the corner right and give it a flick and get round it no bother.

i have no experiance with any of the hankook ventus tbh so i wont bullshit you bout them, maybe some one else has experiance with them and can give there opinion.

iv been useing toyo proxi cf1s the last two years, and fint them brilliant, but wear pretty quick, but there pretty soft compound and stick to the road like shit. :)

try getting a rear upper strut brace,

what age are you mate?

Glad we can get on now :)

And yeah I know i can't adjust the dampers but i honestly did have the camber set by a company owned by a friend of the families, I got print outs of the geometry, camber, the lot and yeah I got the same with a little negative toe.

And yeah the only thing that bothers me with the proxes is the price :/

And I'm 19, just in the process of finding something with a little more grunt, just wanted to get some more fun out of this while I could do lol

Glad we can get on now :)

And yeah I know i can't adjust the dampers but i honestly did have the camber set by a company owned by a friend of the families, I got print outs of the geometry, camber, the lot and yeah I got the same with a little negative toe.

And yeah the only thing that bothers me with the proxes is the price :/

And I'm 19, just in the process of finding something with a little more grunt, just wanted to get some more fun out of this while I could do lol

well to be honest I'm bafled as to your geometry :L

ul get proxis cheap enough, got mine 185/60/13 for €50 each,

and to be fair lad you understeer problem is down to the driver.

well lad, to be honest with you, and i apologise in advance for being rood, but after hearing what you have to say, and the intentions you have for taking corners as quick as posable on public roads, a 1l is plenty fast for you.

Edited 6 July, 201115 yr by Hargy90

Well I'm sorry the you believe what you want at the end of the day, and I'm sure your no expert driver yourself.

And i never said my intention was to take corners as quickly as possible on public roads, and again please do not judge my driving abilities.

wide entrance tight on the apex and gently wind off the lock.

The art to going fast is to be as gentle with the steering throttle and brakes as possible. saves tyres, fuel and makes you quicker.

I'm 19 too mate, Keep the 1L for a bit insurance is stupidly high for my 1.4 16v

Yeah i am smooth as possible man, just tried every approach into bends now and nothings shaking the understeer. although had a tinker with the ride height tonight and got some good results i think :)

And yeah 16v's are real pricey on insurance