right i was sick to death with this oil debate, and why syntha silver is the stuff to use etc etc so i decided to email the man who probably knows better than most > Steve @ pitstopdevelopemnts.

here is his reply:

Hi there

It is a question we are often asked, again it isn’t a fact just my opinion, but I’ll explain my reasoning behind it.

First off we always use VAG synta silver 10-40 semi synthetic in the G60 and G40’s regardless of it being a tuned or standard engine. We have used other brands and weights in our own cars but have always experienced problems of some description. Fully synthetic oils such as Mobil 1 0w tends to find it’s was out of every gasket and oil seal on a VW engine and in one instance we have seen a G60 engine that had been religiously run on Mobil 1 which needed to be rebuilt due to the use of fully synthetic oil. The bores were glazed on this engine where the oil has lubricated the rings so well that the effects were adverse. Pistons ring needs some friction to grip the bore and create a seal. The fully synthetic oil had lubricated so well that the rings had ended up polishing the bore up and were not sealing.

Different brands of oil use different detergents. The consistency of the Synta silver oil seems to remain inert to oil seals in the charger very well. Other brands of oil use very alkaline detergents that react with the rubber of the oil seals which leads to them half dissolving and delaminating themselves. Other brands seem to do the reverse if they are more acidic and harden the lips of the seals leading to failure. Some other brands such as Motul are as synthetic base and they tend to be hydroscopic and turn milky if the car is only used for short runs and does not get enough temperature into it to evaporate the moisture out of the oil.

The G40 engine is quite antiquated by modern day standards and does not run massively close tolerances like V-tec engine do for example. Modern engines require fully synthetic oils to lubricate and stay in very close bearing tollerances and are effective.

With oil it is a case of using what is best for the application and not what is technically the best product available to you. Synta silver is the best oil for the G40 application as it is tried and tested. The only downside to the oil is that it has not got the stabilising properties that fully synthetic has got at high temperature and degrades. In saying this even if the oil was good for high temps the oil seals and gaskets are not, so heat is bad full stop. This is easily remedied by fitting and external oil cooler set up to stabiles the temperature to around 85-100’c which is a good operating temperature and will keep the oil stable and all gaskets and seals happy.

The final thing I would also add. Regardless of whatever oil is used the key thing is to change oil and filter as often as you can afford. This way you flush out any foreign bodies in the oil as regularly as possible so they do not circulate around the engine causing damage.

I have never had any problems with using synta oil and genuine G40 filters. Castrol may be as good, but it seems silly to switch to an unknown product from using a long term tried and tested product.

Many thanks

Steve Pitt

Pitstop Developments

Unit 4,

Five Stone Nursery

Toddington Lane

Littlehampton

BN17 7PP

Tel:- +44(0)1903 - 723981

What a top bloke!

Edited 23 May, 200620 yr by spaniel

A good read. I've been using Synta in all 3 of the my VWs for the last 2 years or so anyway. And i have just recently switched to VW's Pink Antifreeze

bumped

Pinned

No wishing to steal your thread but keeping it on topic, the biggest confusion over oil is what the numbers mean.

This seems like a good place for an explanation written in plain english.

If you see an expression such as 10W-40, the oil is a multigrade.

This simply means that the oil falls into 2 viscosity grades, in this case 10W & 40.

This is made possible by the inclusion of a polymer, a component which slows down the rate of thinning as the oil warms up and slows down the rate of thickening as the oil cools down.

It was first developed some 50 years ago to avoid the routine of using a thinner oil in winter and a thicker oil in summer.

For a 10w-40 to attain the specification target a 10W ( W = winter) the oil must have a certain maximum viscosity at low temperature. The actual viscosity and the temperature vary with the viscosity grade but in all cases the lower the number, the thinner the oil, e.g. a 5W oil is thinner than a 10W oil at temperatures encountered in UK winter conditions.

This is important because a thinner oil will circulate faster on cold start, affording better engine protection.

For a 10w-40 to attain the other specification target a 40 oil must fall within certain limits at 100 degC. In this case the temperature target does not vary with the viscosity grade, if there is no "W", the measuring temperature is always 100degC. Again the lower the number the thinner the oil, a 30 oil is thinner than a 40 oil at 100 degC., which is typical of maximum bulk oil temperatures in an operating engine.

The engine makers are, of course, very well aware of this and specify oils according to engine design features, oil pump capacities, manufacturing tolerances, ambient temperature conditions etc. It is important to follow these guidelines, they are important and are an are stipulated for good reasons.

If the engine has been modified, the operating conditions may well be outside the original design envelope. The stress on the oil caused by increased maximum revs, power output and temperature may indicate that oil of a different type and viscosity grade would be beneficial.

Cheers

Simon

Steve,

You sound like a knowledgeable guy but some of your comments intrigue me.

Firstly, synthetics are proven to have better performance in all areas, temperature stability, wear, cooling and lubricity so I do not understand why an engine would have needed a rebuild due to the use of synthetics.

Secondly, there are more than one type of synthetic. There is the hydrprocessed mineral based ones, always the "cheaper synthetics" and there are the proper manmade pao/ester ones which are used in competition engines and jet engines due to their superior stability. Synthetic is a widely abused and used word. (Long story that I will go into another time)

Thirdly, quality is personal choice, you get what you pay for like all things in life but I have seen more engine failures due to the use of the wrong viscosity oil than I have seen due to the quality of the basestock.

Finally, the type of oil you use (quality wise) should be determined by the type of use and state of tune of the car in question. It is never as simple as saying a decent 10w-40 semi-synthetic will do.

Sure in a stock road car the oil is not stressed but the minute the engine is modded or the car is used off-road, you take the manufacturers oil recommendation outside of the envelope and need to seek better quality for better thermal stability. Cheap semi-synthetics shear (drop out of grade) very easily when higher engine temps are involved risking metal to metal contact as the oil gets too thin.

Change the parameters and you change the requirements from the oil.

I must declare that I am in the oil industry, I do not work for Mobil and have made this post because oil is no longer a simple topic, things have moved on.

For example VAG PD engines require special PD oils due to the unique nature of the pump which puts extreme demands on the oil. Most VAG engines today have long service (variable) periods putting further demands on the oils stay in grade properties and many VAG cars today are specified very low viscosity oils 0w-30 and the like.

Just some comments that are worth making in light of the different owners here that may be reading.

Cheers

Simon

PS. The biggest factory fill company for VAG engines today is a company called Fuchs Lubricants (German of course).

oilman what do you think MOBIL 1 0W40...FULLY SYNTHETIC...

vw turkey uses Castrol Magnetec 10W40 and changes oil every 15.000 km...

Mobil1 is a very good oil and not in the same league as Magantec which is only a semi-synthetic.

Cheers

Simon

Hi

I initially wrote the above post as a reply to an e-mail to a

Specific enquiry that a customer made, not as a generic

Public reply. The question asked what was the 'The best oil

To use in a G40'. As you say the final choice of what oil to

use is down to the individual and the application. If I had

known it was for a wider audience I would have been a little

more concise.

The G60 engine that was bore glazed I should have been a

little more clear on, as you say the majority of damage

caused to engine is though the incorrect choice of oil for

the application rather than the quality of the oil itself,

this is a good example of this.

Due to the supercharger being lubricated by the engines oil

circulation system it is important to use oil that has

properties of the original spec as the oil pump pressure

release valve and the pressure valve in the G40 oil filter

are calibrated to eliminate excess pressure. If the valves do

not do their jobs correctly then the oil seals in the

supercharger become pressure release valve and blow out of

their housings incurring an expensive and messy failure where

by the entire contents of the sump can be pumped into the

induction system within about a minute. As with the necessity to use the correct grade of oil with the new VAG PD engine it is as much the case with this older VW engine which has a pressure sensitive supercharger inline

We have stripped and rebuilt 40-50 G40 and G60 engines of

various states of tune mileage etc over the last few years to

rebore them to larger capacity etc. The majority have just

been run on Synta silver oil and the main engine components

such as main bearing shells, cranks etc etc have been in A1

condition with little or no signs of wear which leads me to

believe that the Synta is pretty good for this application.

I know the oil industry spends a lot of time and money on

Research and development. I know there are more expensive

Synthetics that would have better qualities and will keep my

engine alive for 250,000 miles of use when the chassis has

long rotted around the engine. One of our motorsport

supplier’s deals with the Shell Helix range of oils and has

various different specs for various applications which they

supply to various race teams and has technical data on all the different specs.

The Oil industry is also a huge industry with a lot of marketing hype, product placement, promotion etc. Some of the products are very good, others are not all that good but the impressionable customer thinks that the 30 quid bottle of synthetic oil that he is pouring into his car is the same as what the Mc Laren are pouring into the F1 because the marketing hype (which he is paying a fiver extra for to pay for the next glossy 2 page magazine spread). I know some of the big oil companies have kicked up a fuss to quash a genuine independent report when a cheaper brand of oil has out performed the big name brand.

Getting back to the point, which was the original question. I still believe from all the G40's and G60's of in different states of tune, age etc their are no detrimental effects of running Synta Silver Oil to the engine or supercharger. If their were regular issues with big end shells seizing metal to metal every week I would say look for an alternative better quality oil, but this is not the case. To put things into prospective, I'm talking about 15 year old, generally used and abused hanging Polo, Corrado, Golf that are all generally over 100k miles and are worth an average of £2000.

If I was talking about looking after a 911 Turbo then I'd be a little more inclined to source the ultimate oil for the application. We have a couple of engine that have been retro fitted with Turbo conversions in which we run synthetic based oils due to the heat that the oil has to deal with when passing though the turbo bearings.

My above comments ONLY relate to Polo G40's and the G60 engine and are my opinion and my experiences as that is what we deal with day in, day out, yes, we are quite blinkered and possibly set in our ways.

For all other applications I have no experience of and keep the jury out.

It would be useful to have a list of genuine, good quality synthetic oils of which you are buying 5 litres of quality oil rather than a mediocre oil, a fiver marketing, 2 quid towards the skin tight lycra of a promotion girls outfit with the oil company’s sponsors name and 4 quid on the product being endorsed by a F1 driver.

Oilman all your points are extremely valid it is good to see someone in the industry taking time to explain the principles and make up of oil.

I only noticed this post whist eating my breakfast. At least it is an interesting subject rather than 'Red of blue neon’s?

nice.....glad people are takin the time to get their points across

I've been using VW synta gold for a couple years now...I've found that to be easily good enough for my 16v

Hi

I initially wrote the above post as a reply to an e-mail to a

Specific enquiry that a customer made, not as a generic

Public reply. The question asked what was the 'The best oil

To use in a G40'. As you say the final choice of what oil to

use is down to the individual and the application. If I had

known it was for a wider audience I would have been a little

more concise.

The G60 engine that was bore glazed I should have been a

little more clear on, as you say the majority of damage

caused to engine is though the incorrect choice of oil for

the application rather than the quality of the oil itself,

this is a good example of this.

Due to the supercharger being lubricated by the engines oil

circulation system it is important to use oil that has

properties of the original spec as the oil pump pressure

release valve and the pressure valve in the G40 oil filter

are calibrated to eliminate excess pressure. If the valves do

not do their jobs correctly then the oil seals in the

supercharger become pressure release valve and blow out of

their housings incurring an expensive and messy failure where

by the entire contents of the sump can be pumped into the

induction system within about a minute. As with the necessity to use the correct grade of oil with the new VAG PD engine it is as much the case with this older VW engine which has a pressure sensitive supercharger inline

We have stripped and rebuilt 40-50 G40 and G60 engines of

various states of tune mileage etc over the last few years to

rebore them to larger capacity etc. The majority have just

been run on Synta silver oil and the main engine components

such as main bearing shells, cranks etc etc have been in A1

condition with little or no signs of wear which leads me to

believe that the Synta is pretty good for this application.

I know the oil industry spends a lot of time and money on

Research and development. I know there are more expensive

Synthetics that would have better qualities and will keep my

engine alive for 250,000 miles of use when the chassis has

long rotted around the engine. One of our motorsport

supplier’s deals with the Shell Helix range of oils and has

various different specs for various applications which they

supply to various race teams and has technical data on all the different specs.

The Oil industry is also a huge industry with a lot of marketing hype, product placement, promotion etc. Some of the products are very good, others are not all that good but the impressionable customer thinks that the 30 quid bottle of synthetic oil that he is pouring into his car is the same as what the Mc Laren are pouring into the F1 because the marketing hype (which he is paying a fiver extra for to pay for the next glossy 2 page magazine spread). I know some of the big oil companies have kicked up a fuss to quash a genuine independent report when a cheaper brand of oil has out performed the big name brand.

Getting back to the point, which was the original question. I still believe from all the G40's and G60's of in different states of tune, age etc their are no detrimental effects of running Synta Silver Oil to the engine or supercharger. If their were regular issues with big end shells seizing metal to metal every week I would say look for an alternative better quality oil, but this is not the case. To put things into prospective, I'm talking about 15 year old, generally used and abused hanging Polo, Corrado, Golf that are all generally over 100k miles and are worth an average of £2000.

If I was talking about looking after a 911 Turbo then I'd be a little more inclined to source the ultimate oil for the application. We have a couple of engine that have been retro fitted with Turbo conversions in which we run synthetic based oils due to the heat that the oil has to deal with when passing though the turbo bearings.

My above comments ONLY relate to Polo G40's and the G60 engine and are my opinion and my experiences as that is what we deal with day in, day out, yes, we are quite blinkered and possibly set in our ways.

For all other applications I have no experience of and keep the jury out.

It would be useful to have a list of genuine, good quality synthetic oils of which you are buying 5 litres of quality oil rather than a mediocre oil, a fiver marketing, 2 quid towards the skin tight lycra of a promotion girls outfit with the oil company’s sponsors name and 4 quid on the product being endorsed by a F1 driver.

Oilman all your points are extremely valid it is good to see someone in the industry taking time to explain the principles and make up of oil.

I only noticed this post whist eating my breakfast. At least it is an interesting subject rather than 'Red of blue neon’s?

This is a very considered and articulate reply.

I cannot disagree with what you say as it is all technically correct.

The only caution I would make is that modded cars take the oil requirements outside of the manufacturers envelope and the more you mod, the further outside you take the requirement.

Sure you don't need to run outside of the original manufacturers recommendations viscosity wise unless oil temps are higher than normal, in which case the move from an sae 40 to an sae 50 would be prudent but upping the quality on the manufacturers recommended grade from semi to fully is always a wise move as bog standard mineral and semi-synthetic oils are not designed for engines where extra stresses come onto play, they merely shear (lose viscosity) very quickly causing the oil to thin at high temps in some cases to dangerously thin levels risking metal to metal contact.

Cheers

Simon

oh my god what a heavy discussion of oil :-)

We use since years Castrol 10w60 in all g40& g60 cars....no problem...oil temperature up to 130°C are no problem..

greets

martin

10w-60 is an exceptionally thick oil for these cars.

A good quality 5w-40 true synthetic will out perform the Castrol 10w-60 in both shear and temp stability, the Castrol is mineral based.

All you are doing by using it is stressing out the oil pump, wasting power and over the long term increasing wear due to friction.

Cheers

Simon.

Regarding 10W-40...

I used Quantum Synta Silva once and it was brilliant. Changed the oil 2 months later and it was still clear, looked new!

Shifted over to Mobil S and it made my engine sound slightly louder than usual and the oil became black in 2 weeks. Why did this happen?

Ran it for a month and I wasn't feeling the Mobil S so I tried Castrol GTX (not magnatec) and it runs 2nd best to Quantum in my opinion, engine runs slightly warmer but you can hear the oil getting around nicely. And oil became black in 2 weeks not surprisingly.

What happened with the Mobil S? Any ideas?

Cheers, Nick (baffed)

I went to GSF yesterday to get some Syntha silver and they have stopped selling it! They told me you can still get from the dealers but I'm not going to pay dealer prices if there is a better alternative. GSF are selling Fcuhs 10w-40 as an alternative but I was wondering what peoples oppinions are on that oil or other option before I change my brand.

Any advice would be greatly recieved.

I'm likely to upgrade to a fully synth 10w 60 performance grade oil for my new engine. Might cause jip with the charger seals but only one way to find out!

One thing to bear in mind though, is that highly tuned engines tend to have petrol odourous oil during a service. This is petrol getting past the rings and in effect thins out your engine oil.

That was quite an interesting read

in summary what would you suggest for a 6N 1.4 8v ?

10w 40 is standard

so 5w40 perhaps???

and this silva synta where do you get that from?

sorry 15w40 is recomended isnt it

I used Quantum Synta Silva once and it was brilliant. Changed the oil 2 months later and it was still clear, looked new!

Shifted over to Mobil S and it made my engine sound slightly louder than usual and the oil became black in 2 weeks. Why did this happen?

As I understand it, the additive pack in most modern engine oils includes some form of detergent. Assuming that your engine is not worn and is reasonably in tune then the reason that the oil is getting black quickly could be because the detergents are doing their job and scouring all the crap out of the inside of the engine.

If you are going to the trouble and expense of using a decent quality oil and changing it regularly then you might want to consider also using engine flush at every oil change.

Couple of things.

Regarding the glazing point,i understand that to be a factor when running in. I've always used minerals for running in,so the parts bed-together properly. Without knowing the history of the G60 engine,its impossible to know if it was ever run-in properly in the first place.

Also,I've found fully synth 40s to be too thin for the oil pressure alarms in Polo engines. Thoughts?

to bump an old topic, I've been running 5w/40 synthetic oil, made by fulda in my 1.4 16v on bike carbs, i blew the first engine up in the space of a month, one of the big end bearings had melted and it cause that and all other pistons to knock, and foul all the bores

I've fitted a new engine, the same again and again running 5w/40 made by fulda. car has been running fine for getting on 3k now so nearing another oil change. the oil pressure light has never just on but the oil buzzer would sound for about 2 seconds at the same point around 3 miles away from my house. I've had the same in 5th around 4-5k revs, just started for a second but went straight away.

the car is also breathing heavily and spitting a bit of oil out the back of the exhaust, its used around a litre in 3k, but the oil and water do not seem contaminated with each other, however there is definatly some bubbling in the coolant tank even from idle. no loss of power but visible smoke if i proper floor it from very low speeds.

nick how did you get on with 10w60

for my gt I'm not sure what oil i should be using... 10w40?

Know it's probably a daft question, but I've got a 1.0 8v mpi. Synta 10w-40 do the trick? And where can I get it from (: