tbh it doesnt seem much different than my first year of driving ... i was on a tracker which was horrible , constantly watching you and have to get your car at home at a certain time , no speeding etc.....

I'm so glad I'm not on it anymore, i finally have freedom which is what you should have when u pass your test

I would say instilling a good work ethic into kids from an early age would be a good start, try and remove this notion of entitlement that too many people seem to have. People shouldn't be scared into living a decent life, the system only truly works if they want to work and provide for themselves and their families. If someone works hard for something and has pride in themselves for doing it I think there would be less chance of them risking going out and fucking it all up by acting like a idiot. Or that could just be wishful thinking?

The country has definitely lost its moral ground tho, we used to be a nation of grafters, but now a large percentage of the population would rather sit around on their arses watching Jeremy Kyle while the rest goes out and earns the money to pay for them to do so

Don't get me started

Surely a HTC phone isn't 8inches?! I really want to learn to handbrake turn park, my street isn't wide enough :( I also want Russ Swift to teach me!!

Not sure my insurance would be happy though

Oh, i was told it was :(

I used to practice various stunt parking moves back in the day before car parks were barriered up, and camera'd up, once the shops closed. There's nowhere i know of you can do stuff like that anymore.

I used to practice various stunt parking moves back in the day before car parks were barriered up, and camera'd up, once the shops closed. There's nowhere i know of you can do stuff like that anymore.

Unless you are willing to pay a small fortune to play on a track. ORRRR you could find someone with private land and play there I guess? I've never done a handbrake turn or a donut or anything. I think young drivers should be allowed to play around like that to find the limits of their cars and how to correct stuff. I know mine really well but that's only through driving it for almost 2yrs.

Are there no auto cross events in the UK? I mean driving around a circuit made of cones not dirt circuit racing. It's popular in the US and I would be surprised if there wasn't a scene for it here considering all the old airfields we have.

Holy crap.

The country has definitely lost its moral ground tho, we used to be a nation of grafters, but now a large percentage of the population would rather sit around on their arses watching Jeremy Kyle while the rest goes out and earns the money to pay for them to do so

DO NOT SWALLOW TORY BULLSHIT. IF SWALLOWED SEEK IMMEDIATE POLITICAL ATTENTION.

There is no evidence for this, it's an idea they're hammering out as an excuse to make huge cuts to welfare. A very tiny percentage abuse the system, this does not mean everyone unemployed or disabled through no fault of their own should suffer. Don't be fucking stupid.

Are there no auto cross events in the UK? I mean driving around a circuit made of cones not dirt circuit racing. It's popular in the US and I would be surprised if there wasn't a scene for it here considering all the old airfields we have.

I honestly don't know. We have stuff around here, but it's mainly banger stocks and stuff. We have drifters and rally cross but nothing to have a play without paying a fortune for a track day. I think there's something at Lydden Hill called BHP, it's a tenner per run round the track. Dunno if I'm going to do it this year, I'd spend hundreds just going round and round

Are there no auto cross events in the UK? I mean driving around a circuit made of cones not dirt circuit racing. It's popular in the US and I would be surprised if there wasn't a scene for it here considering all the old airfields we have.

Have a look at this http://www.btrda.com/Autotest/ Events are held all over the UK

Holy crap.

The country has definitely lost its moral ground tho, we used to be a nation of grafters, but now a large percentage of the population would rather sit around on their arses watching Jeremy Kyle while the rest goes out and earns the money to pay for them to do so

DO NOT SWALLOW TORY BULLSHIT. IF SWALLOWED SEEK IMMEDIATE POLITICAL ATTENTION.

There is no evidence for this, it's an idea they're hammering out as an excuse to make huge cuts to welfare. A very tiny percentage abuse the system, this does not mean everyone unemployed or disabled through no fault of their own should suffer. Don't be fucking stupid.

I've worked since 1997 and lived on a council estate my whole life, I've seen all the evidence I need with my own eyes, I don't need to be forced feed bullshit from either Tory or labour. Of all the people I know on this estate, more of them are playing the benefits game than are doing things by the book, whether its living where they shouldn't be, working on the side or claiming sick when they are fine.

A 'mate' is on the sick due to heart pulpatations (sp), this came on after a massive coke binge, he was on job seekers on and off the best part of 10 years before that while working cash in hand for the pikeys. He sits around all day smoking weed, everyday he wakes up to a pack of Fags left for him by his mum and sometimes 8 Stella (if he don't get his Fags he breaks shit). He also has a kid that he isn't allowed to see because he got pissed off and smashed the flat up and all her stuff, he's fighting for custody that he will never in a million years get and your footing the bill for that too.

The misses foster sister has 3 kids by 3 lads, makes her younger bother take the kids to school while she lays in bed all morning in her state funded council house and is normally out at least 2 nights a week on the lash, never worked a day in her life and has no desire to, just sits around slagging people off on Facebook all day.

When I was 17 I used to work in warehouses loading lorrys (lynx), I walked in on agency on £7.50 ph and that went up to nigh on £8.00 ph when I was took on full time. Other than the odd middle easten the place was pretty much full of British. A mate works at UPS (they took over lynx) and he said they pay just over minimum wage and the place is full of easten europians. But I guess that the fact the wages have dropped so much and the place is now full of polish just a coincidence? Where have all those British people gone that used to have the jobs that the polish now have?

I know that not everyone on benefits is fiddling the system, but your "very small percentage" claim is nonsense.

I don't need statistics from government funded bodies to tell me anything about that shit. Open you're eyes, the evidence you say doesn't exist is all around you

Anecdotal evidence. The people that get hit by benefit cuts aren't the scroungers, they'll make do with whatever they can get & will always find a way to exploit the system (this is not a new phenomenon), the people that get screwed are always the most vulnerable.

The simple fact is there are more unemployed people than there are jobs, and the idea that jobs will appear from nowhere if you make huge cuts to benefits & public services is just insane.

Anecdotal evidence, well its more reliable than government figures which are just a guess because they could never know how many benefits claimants are fraudulent without catching them all

Why are there more unemployed people than jobs? Immigration has tripled since 1997, have available jobs also tripled since then? No and they were never going to. Let more people in than you have job vacancies for and what happens?

Benefit cuts ain't being made to make jobs, they are being made because we simply can't afford to cover it anymore. It's shit that they are being cut at a time when some people need them most, but if we can't cover the cost of it then what are you meant to do?

One thing that massively pisses me off mind is that while we are making all these cuts overseas 'aid' is not only spared the cuts but actually increased. police cuts, armed forces cuts, benefits cuts ect, ect, but people that live on the other side of the world and have no interest in this country at all get given even more money

I was working full time by 16 but mates weren't. It was hard not to get dragged into the happy Mondays culture. They all had flats on the social, I paid hundreds in rent. They thought I was mad.

But I never let myself go there. Not until I was made redundant in 2008. I thought I'd loose the flat and everything but no - the council paid the £600 a month instead. Bit of cash in hand plus benefits and not only was I on a sociable, novel holiday but I had a higher quality of life.

I had to have a serious word with myself when it came to working, going back to paying for everything, that was a bitter pill.

You're better off on the blag.

Back here with the company who made me redundant and took me back on, I have Polaks working for me. I don't feel guilty because when I get English staff they're lazy, with old fashioned attitude. The English are just too fucking stoned. The Poles/Slovaks are great - keen, positive, friendly and they don't bitch about anything they can think of all the time.

The autotesting, good point but it's not the same. Health and safety etc, rain and snow are good, as is the squash-the-coke-cans game, and that's just when learning to drive with a mate - then in the late 90's the whole thing was blocked with security/police and there was nowhere safely off road to practice. If anyone wants to get political, that most certainly was a sudden left wing iron fist.

^^I'm going to assume yourself or someone close to you has rights to some benefit or other based upon a disability? No one here has said that these people haven't the rights to their benefits. Them losing access to them is a multifactoral problem; lack of government money (remember, the socialist labour party left the current economic problem as their legacy), a want/need to shrink the state (which was reaching communistesque proportions) as well as the people who are claiming benefits that they shouldn't.

I could echo McLovin's story, but there is no need. Immigration is a benefits frauds wet dream giving them the perfect excuse not to work. It has led to a decrease in wages, and those wages aren't going up. Cheap labour is great for economic growth as it allows rapid expansion. However, it's a short sighted view as look whats happened now. A lot of eastern eurpeans working for an unfairly low wage, who also claim benefits, have families that also claim benefits and a substantial amount of that money is also sent overseas. So in the long run, this is not such a good policy. Don't get me wrong, I don't really have a problem with the immigrants, they've come over to take advantage of a pretty cush deal and are only looking to better themselves. But it's not helping our country with a work ethic.

I had a friend, similar to McLovin's who when he was 18 signed on and spent the year out of this world. Drugs, booze the lot. He's since renounced that lifestyle and does all the shitty jobs to earn a crust. Fair play to him but there's too few like him and some of his friends are still living that life at 25 because they think 9-5 is too boring for them and they're lazy

Anecdotal yes, but you'll struggle to get hold of reliable data as political parties are likely to only release the figures that match their agendas. So for Tories, that's likely to have an anti-immigration bias whilst labour will sing the praises of mass socialism.

On a different note, the last shape micra's had awesome handbrakes for handbrake turns!

Don't get me wrong, I don't really have a problem with the immigrants, they've come over to take advantage of a pretty cush deal and are only looking to better themselves.

X2, i'll happily admit that if Australia was as much of a soft touch as this country is I wouldn't be sitting in this grey shithole right now

Man you lot don't half talk some bullshit

Seems Koop is Scottish or Welsh. It only takes five minutes of political subject to find out.

So.. Rally driving, then..

Do you have to be Scottish or Welsh to be able to smell Tory bullshit?

Things like this just prove my point:

Benefit cuts ain't being made to make jobs, they are being made because we simply can't afford to cover it anymore.

How do you know this? By being spoon fed bullshit by the government & media, that's how.

The big Tory lie (well one of them) that seems to have been swallowed by so many is that there is a massive deficit due to Labour spending too much money on public services...erm, no, there was a global economic crisis & we had to borrow billions to bail out the banks. They somehow used this lie to justify massive cuts that we've now had for a couple of years & borrowing is actually UP so clearly they aren't working.

The defecit left by labour was larger than that paid to the banks. A huge state costs a huge amount of money, and labour swelled the ranks of public servants huge amounts. Some Daily mail readers may claim this was done to secure votes. This may or may not have been on the adgenda.

Labour also admitted their multicultural 'experiment' was a failure. And unless you are extremely left wing, there is no way you could argue otherwise. If there are more people than jobs, what is the only outcome?

Also, if you read above, the examples given are the experiences of actual people. Not media or political spin. Here's another one, when I left uni the first time, I went in to factory work for a few years to earn some money. I was not going to be one of those students who sat around because they felt entitled to a professional career. The work was temporary so I did lots of different jobs for around 8 months. I was never out of work, but got paid your minimum wage as well as being told on several occassions I wouldn't be needed at short notice etc. I did the same the 2nd time out of uni, again to earn some money. Same story, for over a year i was in and out of temporary jobs but never turned anything down. During both those times there were people claiming there was no work in my local town. Well I was testament to that being untrue. Point: some people are lazy and won't work shit jobs, feel entitled to a well paying job and don't want to be treated like shit (which employment agencies do). In one of the factories, 90% of my shift were Polish. Why? Because they didn't mind the conditions etc. Now explain to me why wages are low and conditions are shit? Because so long as someone is willing to accept them, the companies have no incentive to improve them.

Now let me hear your story about how I'm wrong. Ideals are very nice, especially where everyone holds hands and is happy. But I'm afraid thats not the real world.

Nobody who knows their times tables can say Labour's figures added up. Billions wiped off our income to appease europe, billions of our reserves sold off to the same, spending through the roof - how does that work out?

Immigration opened to flood levels = ballooned house prices = huge mortgages = more phantom money on the books. Money the home'owners' could never afford. Hence country in hidden debt, inevitably leading to bust banks at some point (hopefully once the tories are back in government in time to take the blame). But that's alright, as long as the unions are kept sweet.

Labour. Socialist owners of the state answering not to the public, but blatant corruption. Well at least it boosted jobs in the car manufacturing industry. Just a shame they didn't open some mines, eh? But then, it seems they also knew that industry is a dead horse. And it wasn't gonna get Blair the presidency he was going for.

Stuff the lot of them. Eton, Cambridge, Oxford, who cares. Same shit different microphone. I was filling my car with fuel when it cost a third of what it does today. I was paying my taxes when Norman Lamont was failing hard at keeping people out the rain. I don't have a tracker in my car, asbo on my record, class-B benefits in my sock to burn, couple of grand compo hidden away etc etc.. I'm just struggling to make it work with the values i was taught and believe in. I know how the country has been running for decades and i don't need pantomime to tell me how the last twenty years of questionable legislation has affected us.

It doesn't detract my opinions on elements of life today, including the way young drivers are treated. But with tobacco taxation squeezed out the building, and speed camera taxation hampered, someone's gotta pay. As ever, it's those trying to earn an honest wage.

Do you have to be Scottish or Welsh to be able to smell Tory bullshit?

Things like this just prove my point:

Benefit cuts ain't being made to make jobs, they are being made because we simply can't afford to cover it anymore.

How do you know this? By being spoon fed bullshit by the government & media, that's how.

The big Tory lie (well one of them) that seems to have been swallowed by so many is that there is a massive deficit due to Labour spending too much money on public services...erm, no, there was a global economic crisis & we had to borrow billions to bail out the banks. They somehow used this lie to justify massive cuts that we've now had for a couple of years & borrowing is actually UP so clearly they aren't working.

Who gives a shit why we are broke, the fact that we are broke is why we can longer afford to keep chucking money into a bloated benefit system, or are you some how trying to suggest that we are not broke and we can actually afford to keep pumping money into the pockets of those not putting into the pot for what ever reason?

While the global crash was out of labours hands, it happened on their watch and they should of made sure we were in a decent position to deal with such a catastrophe, its the government's job to protect its people, whether its protection from attack, hardship whatever. The warning signs were clear and they ignored them at our cost

I don't need to be spoon feed anything from the media or the Tories, I see it everyday with my own eyes, people I know having a better quality of life than me yet they don't work and I do at least 50 hours a week. Blaming the media and Tory propaganda doesn't actually work when my views are based on personal experience and not what some other person/entity has told me to think

But then you must be so well up on all things political seems as you don't get any info from the media or political parties. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that you use edition38 a lot?

All you seem to have to say is Tory lies, Tory lies! Of course they are liars, their politicians

BTW its pretty hard to prove a point when you don't actually have one

Tony blair should be in prison,or better still the electric chair.the reasons-....sending our country to war illegally.and deliberate enforced immigration,and being an ugly idiot.

the man should be tried for treason...

Gordon brown should be in prison,or better still the electric chair,the reasons-...running this country up in debt throughout his time as chancelor,hiding debt,selling our gold half price,BEING AN UGLY FAT idiot.

Edd balls should be darts champion at the local mental institute,for obvious reasons.

Dont vote labour kids

Wow this thread got politcal. I refer you to a man who has said it alllll before. Youtube - Braintax

wont affect me so I'm not fussed! yahooooooooo

Bad way of thinking about it bro, This is the same with car insurance, older people are not fussed as it doesn't affect them much while young drivers get battered with expensive insurance.

I would rather young people be forced to use a tracker in their first year than a new banned or criminal offence, it will only increase the cost of insurance whilst a tracker does the opposite.

That is if there was no choice, personally i hate the idea it's restrictive and another reason to limit young people with work with so many people out of work it sometimes feels like the government do everything possible to keep as many people as possible out of work.