Guys, put yourselves in this situation.

You have a Polo shell that you want to build a track car around. The track car is not going to be built to compete initially, just be used on various open track days to start, so there are no regulations to adhere to. You want to spend a lot of time on the optimisation of your tyre, wheel, suspension and chassis packages whilst designing this car. So much so, that the shell will most likely be so modified, that it didn't matter that you started out with just a Polo. Most of your attention out on the track will be spent studying the interaction of these sub-systems, for the purpose of making a car that is easy, and satisfying to drive fast and on it's 'limit'. Most of the project's budget will be spent on these areas of the car, consequently there is not much money left for the powertrain.

(Perhaps you may not agree that this is the best path to take for a track car, but please bare with me and read on!..)

You now need an engine that is going to make the car fast enough to be at the limit of grip for enough of the corners to make this a useful exercise. Making some huge assumptions, I'll say that, given the car's intended weight and it's aerodynamic nature, at 'average British race track speeds' (say, tracks of the BTCC calendar), a minimum of 200bhp would be required. Keeping the car FWD, the engine will be transverse, so all realistic packaging options limit you to an inline four. Let's say the chassis and engine mountings can be modified enough to fit any kind of engine that falls into this category. What would you guys spend your money on?

First of all, would you buy something stock, like some kind of Ford saloon/estate engine, with 200hp out of the box? Or would a smaller, lighter, but modified engine provide more benefits? Would tuning and modding some kind of Honda V-tec provide 200hp for less money than a French or German equivalent? Where would I stand on reliability, which option is worse from this aspect? Presumably, forced induction is the worst option for both cost and reliability? Oh and just to make it interesing, transmission choice is free.

Essentially, if you were in the situation above, what engine would you buy?

Look forward to hearing your thoughts!

Edited 19 March, 201313 yr by CWA

Which Polo shell?

6N is in mind, but in theory it won't matter..

2 litre Red top or maybe the v5 from a focus rs

2 litre Red top or maybe the v5 from a focus rs

Hmm, interesting Nige! Completely standard red top? And with some kind of Vauxhall gearbox to match?

Any particular reason for this over, say, a VTEC lump? Cost? Reliability?

I'll have to look into the Focus lump, don't know much about those!

Edited 20 March, 201313 yr by CWA

id go forced induction , a newish vw tsi engine engine 4 pot, out of the,box, fitted and programmed to whatever driver aids your running

id go forced induction , a newish vw tsi engine engine 4 pot, out of the,box, fitted and programmed to whatever driver aids your running

Interesting, doesn't sound cheap to me though?! And there will be no driver aids!

2.0 16v, normally aspirated.

I'd be tempted with aomwthing old/simple yet reliable just naturally aspirated like a 2.0L 16v or even a Pinto? Can be had cheap and with the right parts still keep cost down and have a half reliable 200bhp that wont cost the earth to fix.

Hmm, what about an Imprezza turbo engine? They are very common, so bits are cheap. You get all the power you are after, and could easily up it if required, for very little extra cost, and it's a flat four, so you get the benefit of keeping the engine weight nice and low in the car, which would obviously benefit your handling. Plus, the engines are fairly bomb proof.

There are so many Imprezza's out there now that have had a lifetime of abuse, but they just keep on going.

2.0 16v, normally aspirated.

1.8 8v G60

2.0 16v

Boosted 1.6 AFH

Vtec

Vauxhall Redtop on throttle bodies

1.4 TSI

2.0 TFSI

Plenty of options, last two would be a bit more pricey though

have you thought about going down the heavy oil route?

Audi do a TDI 170 engine, with some tuning could hit over 200bhp easy. And they are VERY "urgent" feeling engines...

Interesting replies guys. I haven't thought about diesel engines, nor do I want to really. I'd rather just go down a route which has a history of proven reliability, I don't want a troublesome engine choice to be distracting me. I don't really like the packaging implications of a flat four either I'm afraid, I've got some plans for a custom subframe that will make a boxer unit harder to fit. I'd also rather keep the engine transverse so the torque from the engine doesn't twist the chassis longitudinally. Thanks for the suggestions though.

The red top and 2.0 16V GTI engines are all sub 200bhp as standard. If any of you guys have experience with these engines, is there one option that you would say costs less to bring up to 200hp, making it the obvious choice? Is there a reason I should choose a GTI engine over a red top, or a VTEC? Or have most of you just suggested the GTI lump because you are all VAG fans?

Forbes, after having a think about it, perhaps I'll steer clear of the forced induction route for the sake of reliability, at least to start with. But out of interest, do you really think a turbo 1.6 AFH would get up to 200bhp ?

Edited 20 March, 201313 yr by CWA

Have you considered a "T-Series" tomcat turbo engine? IIRC they are 197bhp out of the box and I think they came with a fully mechanical LSD as standard too.

Edited 20 March, 201313 yr by Matt Mk3loon

Mitsubishi FTO 2.0 v6 Mivec engine.... Fwd, 200bhp...............V6!

Can pick up a scrapper cheap but finding a manual is hard

Edited 20 March, 201313 yr by Matt G40

a turbo 1.6 afh would easily break 200bhp yes but its not cost effective for what your looking at really

Have you considered a "T-Series" tomcat turbo engine? IIRC they are 197bhp out of the box and I think they came with a fully mechanical LSD as standard too.

Nope hadn't considered it, or even heard of it actually. After having a google, the fact that it is Rover puts me off slightly. Mostly because of reliability, and access to spares should it ever need rebuilding. The few engines on ebay do seem to be relatively cheap though.

Mitsubishi FTO 2.0 v6 Mivec engine.... Fwd, 200bhp...............V6!

Can pick up a scrapper cheap but finding a manual is hard

I had considered V6's, would likely opt for a Ford if I thought it would be possible. I don't think I'll be able to package one though, hence sticking to inline-4 options.

a turbo 1.6 afh would easily break 200bhp yes but its not cost effective for what your looking at really

Blimey. That's quite cool to know. Might not rule it out completely then..

Oh, to mix it up a bit, perhaps a bike lump? It would give me huge packaging potential, all I'm worried about is the chain drive to be honest. Anyone ever had experience with one of these in a car? Perhaps it's not the cheapest option.. I'm imagining a Hayabusa, or something close..

Rotary...?

Boost be annoying if done shit, accelerating out of corner and coming on boost = now going wide, at least NA is progressive

Oh, to mix it up a bit, perhaps a bike lump? It would give me huge packaging potential, all I'm worried about is the chain drive to be honest. Anyone ever had experience with one of these in a car? Perhaps it's not the cheapest option.. I'm imagining a Hayabusa, or something close..

Great if done right, but shite if done wrong, the cheapest way is a chain>cog> single driveshaft. Which to be honest id ok for dicking about in but not for the track as you have a fully locked axle, and downshifting and engine braking will be a nightmare

Oh, to mix it up a bit, perhaps a bike lump? It would give me huge packaging potential, all I'm worried about is the chain drive to be honest. Anyone ever had experience with one of these in a car? Perhaps it's not the cheapest option.. I'm imagining a Hayabusa, or something close..

Great if done right, but shite if done wrong, the cheapest way is a chain>cog> single driveshaft. Which to be honest id ok for dicking about in but not for the track as you have a fully locked axle, and downshifting and engine braking will be a nightmare

It would probably be a rear sprocket onto an LSD of some kind. I've seen Quaife do a transfer box that holds a diff and also has a forward/reverse function, it's built specifically for use with bike engines, and is connected via chain and sprocket. How do you think a bike engine set up could go so wrong as to be shite? The only worry I have about that option is that it is WAY more expensive. A spool I imagine wouldn't be too hard to live with in fairness, except for maybe the slowest of corners.

Never thought about rotary either to be honest. I imagine it might be easier to package but rotary engines just don't seem to have reliability sorted as well as other options. Plus I have no experience in getting them to run lol

Consitant (diff lock as its called) will eventy get anoying on the track, and could leave you backwards in a tyre wall

It would need soft gear changes all the time effectivly slowing you down too :)

Consitant (diff lock as its called) will eventy get anoying on the track, and could leave you backwards in a tyre wall

It would need soft gear changes all the time effectivly slowing you down too :)

I didn't want to bite, but I can't help it. Why exactly would a solid axle get annoying? Could it actually cause me to spin? Let's just say it can, in theory, so could a number of other set-up errors I make. The car is staying FWD BTW, don't know if that's causing some confusion? I would have thought that at worst, it would cause an increase in torque steer. But lots of my suspension/subframe/chassis work is going to be specifically focused on minimizing this problem. As said, on higher speed corners where the speed difference between inside and outside wheels is negligible, is a solid axle really going to be that much of a problem?

And why would it need soft gear changes more than any other differential? Either way, I'm not too worried about inefficient gear change times at the moment. I'll start worrying about those once I have the money to afford a fancy paddle shift system

I though where where talking about an non Diff axle here? and rwd?

nevermind

Edited 20 March, 201313 yr by Matt G40

I think you would be best going for an engine that is forced induction as oem or a normally aspirated engine that is 200bhp or near to.

You mentioned reliability, and a track car is used hard. Turboing lumps that were not designed for it are never reliable in that application without replacing/uprating everything.

Same goes for tuned normally aspirated. Youll be twaeaking and adjusting all the time and there is always some part outside of its tolerance which could compromise reliability.