Hi

I've recently charged my battery just to pep it up for the cold weather ahead.

Yesterday, after using the car on and off through the day, I went to start it and it was just turned over very slowly, like the battery was dead. No way it was going to start. Then, when I disengaged the starter there was a funny noise that sounded like it was coming from behind the dash ? As though some component was not enjoying a lack of power. I checked the battery and it was reading 12.65 V.

I recharged the battery over night. All cells full and bubbling. This morning, battery back on, double checked all connections but it was the same ? Very slow turn over.

 

The car is an automatic 1.4 6N .  Ever since I've had it, the starter sometimes makes a loud squeek as the engine fires. Like the car is sneezing. But it has never been slow. Quite normal except for the loud squeeky sneeze noise.

 

After the first battery charge, when starting the car, the starter motor would momentarily cut out and then go again and the car would start normally. This happened so quickly that it was barely noticeable, but power loss must have been complete as the clock on the dash was at 00:00 and the trip meter was also at 0.0.  This is why I double checked all connections after the second charge.

But its still resetting the clocks when I try to turn it over, even though it wont turn over properly. Not even one rev.

 

I was going to check the alternator output once the car was started, but it seems that that is not the problem.

 

I'm pretty sure the engine isnt seized, but I'll check, just to tick it off the list of possibles.

 

It seems as though there is no juice in the battery, but it's fully charged and pretty healthy.

 

Any help, ideas, suggestions very gratefully received.

Edited 1 December, 20178 yr by Polo3

Even though the battery was bubbling away, it doesn't mean the battery is healthy and capable of delivering it's advertised "cranking power" the fact that the speedo is resetting to zero means the volts are dropping that low, if you can get a jump start as you can't bump start an automatic, then take it to a garage and get them to test the battery, the other thing you could try is the old trick of putting a jump lead between the battery NEG terminal and the engine and see if that makes any difference, if it does, then you need to check the engine earthing cables

Hi

Thanks nige8021

Just to add that it could be a lazy starter motor.

Also, I find that nice clean oil just before the winter arrives, helps the turning over of the engine.

Hello, 

 

your battery may read 12 volts but you still might have a dead battery. 

Check load voltage. 

 

1. Connect your multimeter as normal to the battery 

2. While cracking your engine check the voltage of your battery 

3. If below 9 volts.... battery is fucked 

 

Kind Regards 

James 

37 minutes ago, BISHNAY said:

Hello, 

 

your battery may read 12 volts but you still might have a dead battery. 

Check load voltage. 

 

1. Connect your multimeter as normal to the battery 

2. While cracking your engine check the voltage of your battery 

3. If below 9 volts.... battery is fucked 

 

Kind Regards 

James 

As the speedo is resetting to zero, this means the volts are dropping below 9v 

Many thanks gents.

I've been mulling it over at work and the fact it's happened in this cold weather is probably not a coincidence.

I'd also considered a bad earth but forgot about a jump lead to earth.

 

Just checked the battery and it dropped from over 13v to 5v when cranked.

 

So, yes, battery fucked.

 

What a relief that it's something straight forward.

 

Cheers, thanks for your help. Much appreciated   

Edited 1 December, 20178 yr by Polo3

Cold weather will always show up a weak battery. 

 

It goes against what you would think to do on a cold morning, but if you get in turn ignition on and put the headlights & HRW on for a minute or two, then switch them off and try starting you might be suprised that it spins over like normal, the reasoning is the current flow for the headlights & HRW is enough to warm the battery cells up a little and by doing this it lowers the internal resistance of the battery so allowing it give more power to start 

Thanks Nige. I'll remember that.

 

Quick update - I put a decent battery on and it still wouldnt turn over fast enough enough to start. So I thought that the battery wasnt as good as I'd thought, despite an overnight charge.

                         

                          Out come the jump leads. A good robust set of. No joy. Tried the neg straight to earth to check that, still no joy. Checked the Volts, they didnt drop below 9 when trying to crank. So I'm concluding that the starter motor is knackered ?

                          Going to whip the plugs out and see if it'll spin over more quickly.

 

                          How can I check that the starter is knackered before going down the replacement route ?

Took the plugs out and it turned over continuously, although slowly. There was a bit of a burning electrical sort of smell above the starter.

 

The replacement battery was def a good one as it turned the engine over with the plugs out, whereas the one off the Mrs car wouldnt turn it over.

 

I have a donor car to rob bits off so I'm going to change the starter. The loud squeak it makes on starting is enough of a question mark over it as well as the burning smell.

 

I've no reason to suspect the engine may be partially seized, as there's plenty of oil and no warning lights have come on at all.

The squeak might be the bush in the gearbox that the end of the starter motor shaft turns in. 

It wears away after around 200,000miles and is cheap and simplish job. Think I wound a head bolt into it to pull it out.

 

Might be this part...

https://www.vwheritage.com/113301155-bush-gearbox-starter-12v

But it doesn't stop starter armature spinning, Just the bendix engaging well in flywheel teeth.

 

Sounds and smells like starter motor brushes worn.

 

Ah, you're writing about a 1.4 6n despite profile picture. Ignore the bush comments. 6n starter is direct drive, but starter brushes could indeed be worn.

Edited 2 December, 20178 yr by dvderlm

I'm starting to think something is seized. 

 

I've put a good battery with plenty of guts on. I've changed the starter for one that I know is good.

Now, when I try to start, it turns over, albeit slowly. It tried to fire a couple of times, but that didnt spin the engine any faster. It just seems like there is some resistance and doesnt sound right. There is also a bit of a small squeak as it goes round, like something that shouldnt be is dry ?

 

The small squeak reminded me that there has been a small noise in the engine area recently. It sounded like a small stick had got caught where it was wedged against the auxiliary belt and was making a small whirring noise.

I didnt notice it all the time and had forgotten about it. I should have tried to locate it, but it was never enough to cause concern.

 

Last time it was driven, everything was normal and sounded normal.

 

Last oil change was 6K ago. The engine was flushed and treated with ZX1

 

Any suggestions ? 

 

I think I'll get the AA out tomorrow to see if they can get it going and see what they diagnose.

Have you tried starting it in N rather P ? 

No, but I'll give it a try.

I tried starting it in N which helped it turn over a bit faster but it still wouldnt start.

 

I got the AA out and the lad couldnt get it started either. I say lad because I'm usually more than impressed with the level of knowledge and ability, but unfortunately this fella didnt have the same level of experiance.

 

The up shot was there is a good spark and fuel, but it wouldnt start. It was trying to start at one point. You know, when the turn over gets faster and faster and then it fires up. Only trouble was it didnt get to the starting point and it felt like the starter  was probably getting a bit hot. When it was trying to go for it, the engine was shaking about quite violently ?

Even tried to start it by spraying some brake cleaner down the throttle. Nothing. I was going to try WD40, but patrol lad said try this and assured me it was highly flammable.

The only thing I can think of is that when I took the plugs out to see if the engine would fly over, I might have put the leads back on wrong. But they are all a certain length and pretty hard to get wrong. Maybe I disturbed something else without realising it ? But cant think what ?

It is still turning over more slowly than I would have thought.

 

Going to get hold of a compression tester, just to check that. Then examine the timing thoroughly, as suggested by the AA fella. 

 

I think I'll whip the plugs out again and turn the engine over by hand from the crank pulley. That should give a better indication as to any partial seizure.

 

Any comments welcome.

16 hours ago, Polo3 said:

.....I think I'll whip the plugs out again and turn the engine over by hand from the crank pulley. That should give a better indication as to any partial seizure.

Any comments welcome.

Hi

So called 'wet plugs' can cause a non-start. So dry the plugs and give them a good clean.

What year is the Polo and how high is the mileage?

It's a 98 and done 120K .

It's got a good service history and being automatic, has been owned by the type of driver not likely to ramp it. Old folk and ladies as far as I'm aware.

 

I've just done a compression test and they're all good at about 150+

While the plugs were out, I put a spanner on the bottom pulley bolt and tried to turn it. It would not turn clockwise at all, the correct direction of rotation, but it would turn anti clockwise quite freely. So it's not seized which is a relief.

 

So there is significant resistance to the engine rotation which is reflected in the slow turn over, even with the plugs out.

 

Could it be something to do with the automatic selector ? Maybe something's slipped or come loose ? and it's dragging on the torque converter ?

 

It has also been suggested that the cam belt could have slipped ? When turning it over by hand (anti clockwise) there was no feeling of any valves bumping into pistons. But could the belt have slipped. It's only done 6K and the tension is still good.

 

I do think that resistance to trying to turn the engine over clockwise by hand is significant ?

 

Maybe, when I last drove it, as I put it into park, something slipped ?

dont turn it anti clockwise...the belt will loose tension its meant to go clcokwise

 

if you want to check the cam belt marks...take out the spark plugs and rotate the engine clockwise until number (cam belt end) piston is at the top and then check the marks on the pulleys , you will need to check google or hayes for where the marks are

 

i doubt it has slipped if the belt is still tight

It was the autobox why I asked about trying it in N rather than P, when was the last time the fluid in the box checked ? and has the filter pack been changed ? it could well be the torque converter is causing so much drag it's slowing the starter motor down so causing the non start 

I'm not buying the slipped cambelt theory. Reason being, it drove perfectly normally, parked up, 2 hrs later it wont turn over.

 

I've cleaned and heated the plugs with a blow torch, so they were very hot. When I tried to start it, it had a couple of goes at firing before the battery ran out of grunt. It still has ample power (no pun) but not enough for this level of resistance.

 

1 hour ago, nige8021 said:

It was the autobox why I asked about trying it in N rather than P, when was the last time the fluid in the box checked ? and has the filter pack been changed ? it could well be the torque converter is causing so much drag it's slowing the starter motor down so causing the non start 

 

While turning the engine over on the key with no pugs in, I tried it in both N and P. There didnt seem to be any difference. It was just slower than it should have been.

i have no idea when the fluid in the box was last checked, nor when the filter pack was last changed.

If the torque converter is causing so much drag that it's slowing the starter motor down, can that be remedied ?  Because that does sound like that's what the problem is.

You might be lucky and do a fluid/filter change but it is sounding more like the torque converter is possibly causing the slow rotation of the engine 

 

Have you scanned for any gearbox fault codes ?  you will need a VW specific (VCDS) diagnostic reader as a generic reader will not pick up the gearbox codes 

I was typing this as you replied Nige.

 

Had a look in the manual and it says the any probes with the auto transmission are specialist and need to be dealt with at a VW garage.

 

I have an auto Polo that I use for spares. It has a good box.

 

Should I get it to the VW garage despite their very high hourly rate or should I swap the box ?

I would rather get it dealt with at the garage, but do you think that they will be able to fix it with a new filter pack and fresh oil ?  Or do you think it's knackered ?

 

If it's knackered, I'd rather get on with the swap than pay the garage to be told it's knackered.

 

 

Edited 4 December, 20178 yr by Polo3

What could have happened to the torque converter if it is the problem ?

 

Not got the kit to do a scan for gearbox fault codes.

not convinced its the autobox...was it working without issue before hand or a bit dodgy?

No, it was fine.

Sometimes it would not have not changed up as quickly as I'd have liked when taking it steady up hills.

Sometimes, if I braked hard and then back on with the throttle, the drive would cut back with a heavy thump. But the other auto Polo that is now the donor car also did that.

 

Maybe not the box, but as Nige said, maybe the Torque converter ?

 

What is making the engine really heavy to turn over when it's in N or P  ?  Shouldnt it be completely disengaged from the box when in N or P ?