The new o ring seems too big to me. It fits easily over the top of the old one. Is that the way it's meant to be? 

I've changed an o ring on something else at work, the only one i had was just a tiny bit too big and ended up with a little overhang that was a pain to get back in and that small section got a bit chewed. That wasn't for an engine so not a massive deal. 

 

1983, registered as a 1043cc but pretty sure it's 1093. Engine code is AG, dizzy is bosch. Am i going to have an issue if i use that new, smaller rotor arm? 

Sorry, I don't know code AG.

Nor does Polotreff

https://www.polotreff.de/werkstatt/mkb/

or wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_discontinued_Volkswagen_Group_petrol_engines

 

2G is a 1.3 litre.

 

If the rotor arm fits on the pin, sits at same height and rotates freely in the cap drawing same circle  It is probably okay.

 

O-rings have a few defining dimensions.

Inner diameter and thickness of the rubber usually enough.

Can you poke something thin into the groove next to old o-ring to see how deep it is?

 

I'll see if I can find Bosch dizzy specification.

 

 

Edited 21 February, 20206 yr by dvderlm

So many choices...

 

https://volkswagen.7zap.com/en/rdw/polo+derby+vento-ind/po/1984-9/9/905-94000/

(is for 1984, mine)

https://volkswagen.7zap.com/en/rdw/polo+derby+vento-ind/po/1983-9/9/905-94000/

(is for 1983)

 

Either VAG 068145119

or

Vag 030905224.

(see part 16).

 

Former is 3mm rubber thickness

latter is 4.5mm thick.

 

I think diameter is 42mm for both?. Can't tell whether inner or outer.

Maybe 36mm inner?

 

 

So have to go from the VAG part number of the dizzy especially the last letter.

It probably begins 052905205x.

What is x?

 

Maybe this confirms 0.9 to 1.3 engines, so HA onwards.

https://www.mecatechnic.com/en-GB/o-ring-36-x-42-x-3-for-igniter_GH24542.htm

 

 

 

If only a Bosch part number more sleuthing is needed.

 

Edited 21 February, 20206 yr by dvderlm

Is the AG part in the top right of the plate not the engine code? It's highly likely that i'm wrong about it. Feel free to educate me. 

The new Beru rotor arm is the same height and the reach, (if that's a thing,) is the same distance. Only difference is considerably less plastic and a lot less metal parts going on. 

The o ring in place doesn't seem to be perished or brittle. I got the smallest precision flathead i have to see if i could dig it out but it seems pretty snug. Would i be wise to leave it be at this point considering that? 

Does a replacement have to be a certain material or can i pick up a pack of assorted rubber o rings and use whichever one fits bestist? 

Thanks for your help and patience with this so far. I really appreciate it. 

🤑AG is Aktiengesellschaft.

Which is akin to  Limited (shares incorporation).

Be just like saying you have an LTD engine in an old Jaguar Daimler. 

 

The engine code is on top left front of block, where head joins, a ledge protruding very slightly, above alternator.

Will need cleaning with a rag and some solvent to become visible as stamped with code and serial number,

where oil leaks can obscure it, but stops it rusting. 

Two letters, usually,  then several numbers (7?)

 

Rotor arm sounds fine. 

 

You'll want nitrile rubber o-ring as in contact with oil.

I'd leave be... there's always blue or red Hylomar as a very good long lasting temporary seal.

 

At least until you've got a replacement. I think I used a sharp knife but I honestly can't remember.

Might have been done for me by a fantastic Lucas Electrical workshop mechanic when they replaced my Hall sender.

 

Glad to help.

That's the 7zap page i went from. I ordered number 16, the latter one, and the green one pictured above is what arrived. I'll measure what i have and look for something that fits better. I don't want to disturb it and potentially break it unless i have something on hand to replace it. 

 

That page is 1983 to 1989, I think.

Try with a 3mm thickness o-ring.

 

Any VW part number on your dizzy?

 

Edited 22 February, 20206 yr by dvderlm

So i had a small window opportunity to do stuff today. Being an eager beaver, refitted dizzy mounting flange with hylomar blue seal, gave it good time to cure before tightening and then refitting dizzy. Reconnected everything as per the Haynes and pictures i took. Lined up the marks i made on dizzy and engine, bang on. Swapped the HT leads over  one at a time to new cap. Even had freshly charged battery. Turned over but wouldn't start. Refitted old rotor arm and same. Sounded different but still wouldn't start. 

When i first started it, seemed to turn over slowly. Like when a battery is losing it's charge. I tried with full choke, no choke, in between, pumping the throttle, would nearly start but die when i let go of the key. 

When i say it sounded different with the old rotor arm in place, it sounded like the engine was turning faster with the old rotor arm compared to the new one. 

I didn't get chance to check the plugs today but i should have a little time tomorrow. 

Will also try it with old dizzy cap too, just to rule it out. 

I did turn the rotor arm while i was refitting the dizzy, to line up the two teeth at the back of the dizzy with the corresponding line inside the engine. Have i maybe put it back in a way that alters the firing order? 

 

Went back out tonight. Thought maybe i had turned the rotor arm too far and put it back 180° from when i took it off. Two teeth that fit into cog on engine are off centre so will only go back one way. Best i can make out anyway. 

Also refitted old dizzy cap with new rotor arm. I did notice that the metal lobes inside the old dizzy cap were spaced away from the edge of the cap by 1 or mm, whereas the lobes on the new Beru one, were pretty much part of the edge of the cap, with just a little of the cap material covering them from moulding. 

Fired up again, still turns but doesn't start. Keeps turning just a few times after i turn it off though. 

I pulled the two plugs i could get to, two on the right as you face the engine from the front of the car, far right had crud on the thread but tip seemed okay. Second from right had cleaner thread but white part at tip looked like it had been burned. 

Will check other two tomorrow, will also fit old rotor arm to old dizzy cap and see if that works. 

I wonder whether the Ducellier and Beru  rotor arm contact bars at the outer edge of drawn circle are at a different angle from each other once placed on the keyed drive post?

https://www.clubpolo.co.uk/topic/358405-breadvan-engine-leak/?do=findComment&comment=2734330

Picture hints that might be the case.

Sorry, I didn't think of that. Not encountered a Ducellier rotor in real life. And never in a Bosch dizzy.

 

if so that would mean twisting the dizzy body to compensate.

Yes, see if it will run with old rotor arm and cap.

Charge the battery if you've made lots of attempts.

 

Make sure king lead is fully home both ends, no leads damaged, always pull the rubber boot if possible.

Edited 23 February, 20206 yr by dvderlm

Okay. Will get on that later today hopefully. 

Pretty sure leads are seated properly but will recheck anyway. 

Thanks dude.

10 hours ago, dvderlm said:

I wonder whether the Ducellier and Beru  rotor arm contact bars at the outer edge of drawn circle are at a different angle from each other once placed on the keyed drive post?

https://www.clubpolo.co.uk/topic/358405-breadvan-engine-leak/?do=findComment&comment=2734330

Picture hints that might be the case.

Sorry, I didn't think of that. Not encountered a Ducellier rotor in real life. And never in a Bosch dizzy.

 

if so that would mean twisting the dizzy body to compensate.

Yes, see if it will run with old rotor arm and cap.

Charge the battery if you've made lots of attempts.

 

Make sure king lead is fully home both ends, no leads damaged, always pull the rubber boot if possible.

Contact points on both rotor arms are at different angles for sure. I'm also sure the contact lobes inside the old cap and beru cap are positioned slightly differently too. I'm think, but i can't be 100% sure, that the old rotor arm doesn't contact the lobes on the beru cap properly. 

 

Pics are of 4, 3 and 2 plugs. All had very small amount of oil at spark end. Let some oil out as i had way too much in it, wiped plugs clean, tried firing again, same as before. Turns but doesn't start. 

This is with old cap and rotor. 

Will try again when i get new plugs. Hoping that may be it. 

Top pic is old dizzy, no manufacturer markings or part numbers, bottom is the beru one. I'm going to figure out a way of measuring them to check the lobes. 

Those plugs don't look too bad.

Do you see sparks if you rest a plug in its lead on bare metal while cranking?

Might need an assistant.

 

Diff between starting and not can be 2.5mm at dizzy edge.

But you put it back aligned to cut marks.

 

Radiator fan shroud works for me, but yours might be better condition.

Can hold a plug in negative jump lead attached to bat negative pole.

 

Is this points ignition?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 23 February, 20206 yr by dvderlm

That's the distributor caps.

 

Not the distributor body..

Haven't checked for sparks yet. Think i had an issue with too much oil. Did it in a rush last time it emptied itself, i think that's how it's ended up on the plugs and possibly why there isn't a spark. 

I lined up the dizzy body with the marks i made, bang on. Can understand a potential issue with new rotor arm being different angle, but as i've gone back to old rotor and cap, issue must be elsewhere.

I checked the HT leads were seated properly both ends and they seemed fine. Will double check i have the firing order correct. 

My bad. I did mean the dizzy caps amd not the actual dizzy itself. 

Not points, had it converted to electronic ignition when i had the dizzy refurbed about 3 years ago. 

As i have the marks, is it worth adjusting the dizzy to see if that makes a difference? 

When i tried starting, i tried pulling the choke out, as i normally do when i start until it starts. When i get to about 3/4 out, it gets close to starting, any more or less and it backs off to just turning over again. Also tried with no choke, just feathering the throttle. Same thing. Get it to the point of nearly starting but doesn't quite get there. Feels like it's close but something just isn't quite there. 

Carb actions sound fine.

Can always dribble a very small amount of fresh fuel down carb throat in case there's a fuel issue.

5% Ethanol needs to be 3% richer fuel to air mixture I reckon. 

 

What does the dipstick read on flat ground?

I suspect the oily plug is in fact fuel.

Only a little oil can pass the piston rings or perhaps via valve stem seals to get any where near spark plugs unless engine worn

or valve guides worn,

 

Might be worth a tad of rotation clockwise for more advance.

 

Where is the sensor for the electronic ignition?

It needs to know cranking speed.

Is it a 36-1 wheel on crank pulley or inside the dizzy?

All the electronic ignition parts are inside the distributor, apart from two wires that come out through the hole the condensor fits into. 

 

Next time i try to start it, i'll pull a plug and see if it smells like fuel. It did look clear as opposed to slightly brown. 

 

Dipstick currently reads around 3/4 on flat ground. I did let out quite a lot as it was reading overfilled. 

 

When you say clockwise rotation, is that clockwise as though i were looking straight at the dizzy cap from the passenger wing? And i'm guessing very small adjustments? Like mm's at a time? 

 

If it isn't fuel on the plugs but is actually oil, is that sign of a bigger issue with my engine? 

 

Also, got the part number for my distributor... finally!

Is that last letter an O or a Q ?

 

Oh vacuum capsule.

Is the vacuum line from carb to dizzy capsule intact or plugged at carb?

 

I do wonder is there anything about the Ducellier rotor arm that interacts with the electronics in the dizzy.

 

Anyway, only once you've established that it sparks.

Standing at nearside wing, turn it clockwise half a millimeter (or less) at a time between attempts.

 

I think I have previously calculated 2.4mm is 5 degrees.

So under 0.5mm at outer circumference is about 1 degree of advance (or retard).

 

Think it's a 0. As in a zero. I put o into google and it came up with Asian landline numbers. Put a 0 and it came up with a couple pics of distributor and a few links, but most in Greek or other languages i don't speak. 

 

As far as i'm aware, vacuum line is attached and in good working order but i will check it, same time as i check plugs for sparks and do the smell test for fuel. 

 

At this point, i have the old dizzy cap and rotor in place. Only things that have changed since i last started the car successfully, are the cam cover gasket being replaced, the dizzy being removed, cleaned out, mounting flange being removed and seal replaced and some engine degreaser being used. 

 

 

The ducellier was in place when i had the electronic ignition out on this car. I had the dizzy from my old breadvan refurbed and converted from P's and C, when i sold that one, i kept the dizzy and had it fitted to this one. Has worked fine for well over a year. 

Does the rotor arm actually spin when crank? Is the dizzy engaged with camshaft slot?

Try cranking with dizzy cap off and look. But it sounds like it from what you said about turning rotor arm.

 

 

The Bosch number 0231194003 makes me suspect the VAG part number is Q. From a czech website I can not find again ...

 

Maybe put a piece of paper on and use a soft pencil to trace the stamp mark will reveal the tiny slash in the Q,0,O,circle.

Not czech, russian

https://www.ria.com/zapchasti-b-u-trambler-volkswagen-golf-ii-polo-1-0-052905205g-bosch-0231194003-46640751.html

2 hours ago, dvderlm said:

Not czech, russian

https://www.ria.com/zapchasti-b-u-trambler-volkswagen-golf-ii-polo-1-0-052905205g-bosch-0231194003-46640751.html

That's the little bugger!!!!

 

I may get a little time tomorrow night. First check i will do is for spark at plugs. After that, will try and crank it with dizzy cap off to check rotor arm is spinning. It sounds like it's so close to starting so i'm convinced it's something simple. 

After that, i'll try adjusting the dizzy angle in VERY small incriments. 

 

Measured the O ring i ordered, the one that's too big, it's 4.5mm thick and 42mm diameter. I searched the second part number and it came up with another so i'm gonna keep an eye on that one.

 

Once this beast starts up, i still need to make sure i've sorted the oil leak! Totally forgot about that!!!!

When i check the plugs for sparks, do i take them all out and lay them on the cam cover/block or is it okay to do just one?