Good morning all and well I hope.

2002 9N has been standing with very small amount (7 litres actually) of fuel in it for 4 months or so. The fuel would be many months older than that. Battery was flat of course.

 

So, recharged the battery, tried to start and a single fire and then nothing. Tried the spare key and no change

Spark plugs out - very wet. Dried off and repeated with the same result. A quick fire first turn and then nothing.

 

Determined the fuel was off!  Drained it with a large syringe and extracted 7 litres. Emptied the pump of fuel and left in the sun to dry out a bit.

Took spark plugs out and turned the engine over until the battery went flat to get the fuel from the lines through. Quickly mover the spark plug caps as these were arcing close the the petrol vapour coming out of the pistons! Probably was a bit lucky we did not get a bang from this.

 

Filled with fresh E5 Petrol at great expense! (used for the garden machinery normally) Put a good 10 litres in.

In with the plugs and fully confident of a start.

Bang on first turn and then nothing. Retired for a beer and a think.

 

Out with the plugs, they are very wet, more turning over to get fuel through the lines.

New plugs in and bang on first turn and then nothing.

 

I have repeated this process 4 times now and wondering what to do next.

 

1. Was the original fuel dud? Who knows but we now have fresh

2. If it was dud, has enough been done to get it through the lines? 

3. Probably the choke is on. Can I reset it to off and get less fuel in?

4. Suggestions welcome please as I am now at a loss.

 

The key symbol does not come up in the dashboard so assuming all good there.

There is spark and there is fuel and there is compression.

 

Anything else that I should do after an extended period standing with a flat battery?

 

Kind regards and many thanks if you have read this far

Phil

 

 

 

What are the compression figures for each cylinder?

OK - don;t know and do not have a compression tester. There is some for sure as it turns over differently with the plugs in.

Had not considered compression. Maybe some oil in the pots would help as there will have been lots of petrol going through by now? What do you think?

Still repeating the original procedure in the hope it is bad fuel. Still the same result with a bang at the beginning and then nothing.

I has done 112k miles.

Thankyou for the comment.

Phil

 

@Phil H Ideally with a running car and jump leads to support the poorly car's battery, spin the starter for some time (maybe a couple of mins, not seconds,  with plugs out and perhaps the fuse for injector power removed. This could get some oil pressure into the hydraulic tappets, which may have drained down too much during the lay-up.

Then refit plugs and fuse and try again, perhaps still with battery supported externally.

 

If you can tell me the engine code (or VIN) I can tell you the fuse number/position for injectors.

Out for an hour or two now though, so won't be able to help til back.

Kind of you to keep on this. It's an 02 plate.

I have run it for probably that long but not all in one go! Can easily do as you suggest though.

Up for trying anything at this stage, so I am sure I can find the fuse for the injectors, but if you know what it is from the just the age of the car that would be great.

I am at work and the car is at home!

 

The oil pressure light eventually comes on when I turn it over actually but I assumed that would be normal until it gets running.

 

I do have a compression tester (memory!) I'll check that too tonight. Bought it when doing the head on a 6N 5 years ago. Long story bit did not get that one done in the end and it went off on the back of a lorry.

 

What do you think about a bit of oil in the pots if it is low?

 

Kind regards

Phil

 

Engine size/fuel type might get me to the right fuse without full identification. 

I think the compression might be low because of valves not seating properly in connection with the lifters, rather than any cause where adding oil to the rings would help. 

Measure compression first, then work out strategy if low. 

Edited 12 June, 20233 yr by Pete1
Typo

Many thanks. Possibly tonight else tomorrow and I will let you know!

Phil

 

OK. Eventually found the tester I forgot I had and have tested.

175 psi, on all cylinders - 12kg/cm2. About 12 to 1, so probably fair?

Spark plugs still wet from last nights go too. Have some replacements and can out those in when it had dried out a bit.

I am properly at a loss.

Phil

 

Not bad, and good that they're even.

Now, what engine are we talking about? 😋

mmmm yes - you did ask.

Its a 1.2l 3 cylinder petrol. I think it is a BME type.

Does this help?

Phil

 

I think it must be either an AWY if it's 54bhp and has the spark plugs jutting out the front of the head at a steep angle, or an AZQ if 64bhp, with spark plugs vertical, in centreline of head, between twin cams?

Various other physical and wiring differences between these two codes, so narrowing it down further will get me to correct info, and better ability to suggest things.

BME came later (replacing AZQ), May 2004 is the first mention it gets in wiring diagrams. 

OK - was a bit of a stab.

It has vertical and deep holes for the spark plugs. AZQ rings a bell

Phil

Fuse 37 would be a good one to check first, a power feed to the ignition coilpacks, can sometimes be blown by a coilpack failure.

A 20 Amp one, on your car, I think.

Edited 13 June, 20233 yr by Pete1

OK - will check tonight. Pretty sure it is firing though but only the first crank or 2 when the plugs are new and dry.. Plugs are wet and sooty when I take them out, and I clean them each time I change them over so again thinking some sparking must be happening.

Delighted if this is the problem though and will check.

Many thanks still for continued help. Appreciated a lot.

Phil

.

Fuse 37 is fine. 

Phil

Always work giving the dashboard a good hard smack on top. Dry solder joints can be a factor on 9n's.

OK - not tried that.

Had the injectors out yesterday and flushed them through with some lighter gas! Great fun but made no difference. Also drew a half a litre of fuel through the system too, so pretty sure all fresh e5 petrol now.

 

Just puzzled that it fires on first crank and then nothing until the plugs have been changed or left to dry out.

 

Could it be low pressure on the fuel side causing the petrol not to vaporise properly from the injectors?

Could it be the immobiliser? Seems odd as it sparks all the time once the plugs are out and testing for 3 sparks.

Is there aby possibility that the timing chain has slipped? 

 

People have suggested bump/tow starting it. Worth a go?

 

Really sad at the moment making no progress and run out of ideas.

Phil

 

 

2 hours ago, Phil H said:

Is there aby possibility that the timing chain has slipped?

That could be worth investigating. There are some removable caps over the gearbox end of the cam carrier that show some slotted features on the ends of each cam once removed. These should be parallel to one another, whatever angle they are at. When No.1 cylinder is at TDC they should also be parallel to the headgasket.

 

 

Thanks Pete. Will take a look.

Phil

An update!

I did not take a look like I said I would! I did call our local independent chap who I have known for years. He said tow it in and he'll let me know what's wrong.

Did that yesterday and he came back to me within a couple of hours with his diagnosis. The timing chain has indeed slipped and this is the cause of the problem.

Luckily - we think at this stage, it has not slipped far enough for the pistons to have bent the exhaust valves. Apparently this generally happens, but as there is compression it looks like we have escaped this problem.

So, looked on Youtube how to replace the chain. Way beyond what I will take on and have asked the garage to do the replacement. A slow job apparently and around £700 to do! Ouch. Daughter's first car so it has to be done.

Several thousands if the valves are bent and that would be the end of it sadly.

So, a common problem when the engine has not been started for a while apparently and no surprise to the mechanic.

Handy to know for other folk and a complete surprise to me. Very frustrating that it fires and then floods as I could not make the link back to the timing. Will do now though!

 

Thankyou Pete for your help on this one and I hope the update is useful for others.

Yeti - I did give the dashboard a thump! Had dry joints years back on it and sent it away to be fixed, so gave it a go anyway and thankyou for the suggestion.

 

Nearly over and out by the look of it for the forum and sad about that too. I have used it when needed and it has been brilliantly helpful and enabled me to get a lot of tricky things diagnosed and fixed.

 

Regards to you all

Phil

 

Sorry to hear it turned out expensive, but don't blame you at all for not taking on the chain change DIY. Having done one on same engine, I will not do another, horrible job. Not designed with maintenance in mind at all, these engines.

 

Good on you for keeping the thread updated, hopefully you'll get a chance to post a final "it's fixed" soon.

 

All the best,

 

Pete

Kind of you

Phil